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View Poll Results: Are you both a photographer and shooting enthusiast?
Yes 182 51.12%
No 174 48.88%
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Old 02-03-2005   #41
Doug
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At one time I collected guns, and learned what a black hole collecting can be! That's why I now constantly examine my motives for wanting a new piece of camera gear. I don't want to fall into the trap again!
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Old 02-03-2005   #42
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archery, too!
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Old 02-03-2005   #43
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In Denmark you need a weapons permit to carry a a pocket knif if the blade is more than 5 cm so I dropped the whole gun collectiong business before i got into it- but i did shoot in a club once and I think that the breathing techniques the trainer told me helped me do hand held shots at at least two stops slower without camera shakes.
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Old 02-03-2005   #44
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Very good point, Ruben! I too think I can better hand-hold a camera at a slow shutter speed due to techniques learned in competitive rifle shooting.
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Old 02-04-2005   #45
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I came upon this topic as I took a break from writing an article about photography and hunting.

Very a propos non?

So let me start off by saying: My name is Craig and I like guns.

(group reply) "Hi Craig"

I am also an artist, photographer, photography educator, self confessed dog nut and lover of jazz and peaty scotch.

I should also mention that when I say "I like" or "I'm into" something I actually mean that I am in so deeply you'd need Jacques Cousteau in a diving bell to pull me out.

Guns? Ya I've got a safe full of 'em despite living in Canada, the home of the 2 billion dollar gun registration program that makes about as much sense as putting a thong on a flatulent rhino. In fact I'm in the market for another gun. I am leaning towards an Aya #2 16 guage but my obsession for a Leica M3 keeps getting in the way of that purchase.....

Photography? Check. What started out as a hobby 20 some years ago is now my profession. I am a commercial photographer specializing in being a generalist in a mid sized Canadian city. My studio is of course mainly digital now with all kinds of bits and bites flying around daily but all of my staff shooters are well versed in the traditional ways and some have even caught the RF bug.

Educator? Check. I earned eductation related degrees in Manitoba and Quebec and ended up teaching in the public school system. What did I do when I got out after swearing I would never teach again? Yup, I started a photography school. We have 16 full time students in a 10 month diploma program and welcome over 700 part time enthusiasts to evening courses throughout the year.

Dog? Triple Check... we have three. Two Weimaraners and and an Epagneul de Pont Audemer. I am currently writing a book on the various pointing breeds from continental Europe and travel in North America and Europe photographing dogs with a variety of cameras including my trusty rangefinders.

Jazz and peaty scotch? Stay tuned. I will post some photos of this weekend's concert by Luciana Sousa and I will drink a toast of Ardbeg to all my new friends at RFF

Cheers!
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Old 02-04-2005   #46
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I have not fired a gun in many years, but still have a few. AR-1, Bolt-Action 22LR that my dad gave me when I turned 10, and an 1891 Mauser. I have enough property to legally fire the 22LR in my back yard, but I have not. We have a lot of deer around the area, yesterday 6 came through at once. They are fairly tame, but manage to notice whenever I have a telephoto. Some of my friends hunt, and would love to try out the backyard. I tell them that would be fine, they will be dodging bullets, my Wife has the AR-1, a banana clip, and the high ground...
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Old 02-04-2005   #47
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To say I'm also a shooting enthusiast would be a slight understatement. For starters I live on and manage the local public shooting range (rifle and pistol range) outside of Boise, Idaho. I have been a long range competitive target rifle shooter since 1991. I shot at Camp Perry in the National Matches in 1995, didn't do all that well (thanks to a cross fire) but had a great time. I haven't been back to Camp Perry since because there is a rather limited number of long range matches at the National Matches there, not to mention it's a 4400 mile round trip for me (long range being 800, 900, & 1000 yards). I have since; each year instead, attended the Rocky Mountain Palma Matches at the NRA Whittington Center at Raton, New Mexico where they shoot long range for nearly a week (that's only a 2000 mile round trip).

I have shot long range matches in California, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and British Columbia. In 1999 and 2000 I was fortunate enough to be selected as a firing team member on the USA Team to British Columbia shooting against the Canadian and British Rifle Teams. In 1999 I finished as 2nd high team scorer for the USA, and in 2000 as the high team scorer for the USA.

Photography wise I am a gearhead, shooting wise I'm a gun nut. I also enjoy astronomy, riding my Harley on occasion, trying to rebuild my Porsche 914, and doing good work for the great people of the State of Idaho by also working for the Idaho Department of Environmental Quality (yep, I work two jobs, have for the last 6 1/2 years).

Sorry for the lengthy dissertation.

Don
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Old 02-04-2005   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I have this little theory that firearms shooters tends to be involved in photography. I have noticed it here in Singapore at the local shooting club.
I think it has to do with working with fine, intricate, and well made machinery that can be appreciated. I've noticed photographers, gun nuts, and car nuts tend to flock together.
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Old 02-10-2005   #49
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That's what I used to do...
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Old 02-11-2005   #50
Nick R.
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Guns
Cameras
Watches
Stereo stuff
Motorcycles
Musclecars


Did I forget anything?
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Old 02-11-2005   #51
DougK
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I don't own any firearms, nor have I ever, but I did in fact enjoy my time on rifle team in college and all weapons qualification in the Army. For some reason, I've always found it relaxing, probably because I have to force myself not to be tense the same way I do in photography.
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Old 04-15-2005   #52
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Colt National Match c. 1935, Ruger single-action magnum, stainless.

Lots of Leicas, a 1972 Land Rover Series III, a 1978 BMW R100RS...

Cheers,

Roger
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Old 04-15-2005   #53
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Old 04-15-2005   #54
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Forgot to add: Empire Test, Marksman. Do they still have the Empire Test in the army?

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com, www.motorcycletouringineurope.com)
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Old 04-15-2005   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmattock
I also suspect that a part of it might be the appreciation of fine machinery. Great classic SLRs and rangefinders have that essence of the awesome about them, such that they transcend being merely recorders of photons on film, objects of glass and steel, and become imbued with something that, if not an actual soul, is very much like one in many respects.
that's definitely the case with me.. I was drawn to handguns because of the mechanical aspects.. and like cameras, I learned that newer is not necessarily better.. my first handgun was a H&K USP40, which I bought because it touted the newest technology.. same thing for my first camera, a Nikon D70

now I own a Kimber CDP, which is built on the Browning 1911 design.. and my favorite camera is a Yashica GSN.. with a Bessa R3A soon on its way.. and eventually a Leica (model still undetermined)
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Old 04-15-2005   #56
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I would love to own a handgun but another hobby???!!!
My wife would shoot me then take one of the cameras and shoot me again to warn any others who try the same !!!
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Old 04-15-2005   #57
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My mom said I was born with a gun in my hand (watch it!), since as a kid I supplied the myself and the neighbors kids with toy guns playing army, cowboys/indians and cops/robbers.
The photography came later, around age 8, using dad's Brownies's and Polaroids.
The old rangefinders are much easier on the wallet than new pistols these days, and not as much Paperwork to own either - LOL.
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Old 04-15-2005   #58
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I don't know how I missed this thread until today. I also own firearms and cameras. I have an Old Model Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Long Colt that I did NOT have modified with the new "improved" transfer bar type hammer. It just sounds better when it is cocked than the new model does. I also like the way my Contax IIa and IIIa sound when they are cocked and shot.

I also believe that being a rifle and handgun shooter helps with being a steady hand with a camera. But, having said that, I have shot enough that I know I can do better if I use a rest when shooting a rifle and a tripod when shooting a camera.

Along those same lines I think being a trap and skeet shooter along with being a bird hunter helps with the rangefinder style of seeing the photo oppurtunity and quickly "capturing" the moment.

I might mention that I also reload my ammo, mould my own bullets, make my own feather fletching for my arrows and develop and print my black & white film at home.

I shoot traditional bows (no wheels or cams on the limbs, no Kung-Fu laser sight devices, or releases). It's not that I have any thing against those types of compound bows, they, just like digital cameras, are not right for me.

I have a box full of medals around here some place that supposedly says I am a half way decent shot with a rifle, but I don't shoot near as much as I did as a youth.

Interesting thread.

Wayne
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Old 04-15-2005   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankS
Leica, Rolleiflex, BMW R90/6, R100/7
Frank, I'd love to see some pics of your bimmers

not to mention a few of the shooters everyone listed
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Old 04-15-2005   #60
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It interesting that just about any film camera forum seems to have quite a few folks interested in guns, too. Probably is the mechanical angle.
I used to shoot a lot -- Colt Combat Commander (just like my Leotax I wish I hadn't sold it). Still have the war surplus 1917 Enfield in my closet that my dad customized about 1949 as well as my late father-in-law's French Labelle bolt action (there's no safety!!). I hunted until my late 40s but found I enjoyed the companionship of the people on a deer hunt more than the actual hunting. Have no problem with people who hunt for meat but don't have much use for folks who trophy hunt. I think you tend to get more sensitive as you get older. Stll, if I didn't spend so much time a money on cameras I would probably has a civilian model AR-15 with the heavy match barrel in my closet. Never know when we might have to repell the Communist Hordes!!
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Old 04-15-2005   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks
Forgot to add: Empire Test, Marksman. Do they still have the Empire Test in the army?

Cheers,

Roger
I'm not familiar with that test (at least by that name). Our rifle qualification was done against pop-up man-sized torso targets at ranges from 50m - 300m, although for competitive smallbore rifle I punched a ridiculous number of holes into traditional 25m bullseye targets as well.
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Old 04-15-2005   #62
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Anyone who has ever advanced the film on a Leica M3 and then cocked the hammer on a Colt Python will understand the similarity of precision products designed and engineered for a single purpose.
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Old 04-15-2005   #63
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Modern and... not so modern!
Vektor CP1 (South Africa) and Bergmann-Bayard (Danish production)
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Old 04-15-2005   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug
Modern and... not so modern!
Vektor CP1 (South Africa) and Bergmann-Bayard (Danish production)
Hi Doug, you have a Bergmann-Bayard in your collection!
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Old 04-15-2005   #65
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For me it is the appreciation of fine mechanical design and engineering.
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Old 04-15-2005   #66
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I just punch paper, 10 meter air pistol & a Benelli MP-95e with a custom Nill grip, keeps me out of trouble.
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Old 04-15-2005   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Hi Doug, you have a Bergmann-Bayard in your collection!
Hi Peter -- Yes, you are familiar with it? The Belgians licensed the design from a German company and sold a bunch of them mostly to the militaries of Spain and Denmark before World War I. This was the origin of the cartridge now commonly called "9mm Largo." After the war, the Danes wanted some more, but the Belgian tooling had been destroyed, so they licensed its production in the Danish Royal Arsenal in Copenhagen.

Only 2204 were manufactured. This one was made in 1924, and is a transitional model between the early and late variations. And the wood grips in their characteristic pattern came from a later arsenal refit. Some history like this gives the piece some character!

The Vektor above is rare too, becuase shortly after commercial distribution, I think within a year, they were recalled to the factory due to a safety-related concern. The company tracked down all the buyers and offered inducements to buy them back. I ignored them... The gun was never reissued with the problem resolved. So I don't know how few others exist.

And beneath the modernistic styling, the mechanical design is interesting too, as it's a "gas-retarded blowback" design like the HK P7, Heritage Stealth, and the rare Chinese Norinco 77B. About the only characteristics it shares with the Bergmann-Bayard is the 9mm bore (it takes the common 9mm Parabellum), and the manual safety integrated with the front of the trigger guard.

Well... that's gun collector chatter; now back to our talk of cameras old and new...
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Old 04-15-2005   #68
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Forgot to mention that my two illustrations were done without a camera; the guns were simply laid on the platten of the flatbed scanner and scanned.
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Browning N65?
Old 05-30-2005   #69
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Browning N65?

think of it, a handgun that weighs 5 ounces, made entirely of polycarbonate, except the barrel it would be aluminium, auto everything, automatic sight adjustment, automatic loading, automatic cocking, automatic magazine release, i mean really, who would want manual features at all?
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Old 05-30-2005   #70
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Doug, are you familiar with the Czech CZ-52 service pistol? A lot of them have been imported in recent years, chambered for the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge which the Czechs hot-rodded to roughly 1600 fps. Anyway, Century Arms brought some in with a second, 9mm Parabellum (Luger) chambered barrel and also sold some with only the 9mm barrel. I have one that has had the Luger chamber opened up to accept the 9mm Largo. I haven't shot it much but the Largo feeds through the mag perfectly. I reload the Largo cartridge using 38 Super dies and keep the velocities reasonable. I have several other pistols that also fire the Largo cartridge.

Walker
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Old 05-30-2005   #71
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I don't have them now as it's too much hassle in the UK to own firearms, plus my current wife hates them. I used to shoot smallbore target rifle for about 10 or 12 years. I was represented the County for about 3 years and also represented the Police Force I was with for 4 years.
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Old 05-30-2005   #72
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Very cool, Walker! I too had the chamber in the 9mm bbl (furnished by Century with the CZ-52) lengthened to 9mm Largo/9x23mm Winchester dimensions for more reliable feeding. Sort of defeated the purpose of the 9x17 barrel though, intended to make the CZ more salable through accepting such common ammo. Oh well, whatever works!

Consulting with Wolff Springs, we came up with a stronger recoil spring to control battering (I see they now offer a couple of spring choices for this model), and avoid launching spent cases into orbit. 38 ACP and 38 Super have a bit larger rim, so they didn't extract or feed well in mine. I use 9x23 Win dies, as the Super's web diameter is a bit smaller. I figure standard-pressure loads for 9mm Largo should be plenty safe in this barrel...

Sounds like we've been having some similar fun with these!
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Old 05-30-2005   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne R. Scott
I also believe that being a rifle and handgun shooter helps with being a steady hand with a camera. But, having said that, I have shot enough that I know I can do better if I use a rest when shooting a rifle and a tripod when shooting a camera.

I shoot traditional bows (no wheels or cams on the limbs, no Kung-Fu laser sight devices, or releases). It's not that I have any thing against those types of compound bows, they, just like digital cameras, are not right for me.

I have a box full of medals around here some place that supposedly says I am a half way decent shot with a rifle, but I don't shoot near as much as I did as a youth.

Interesting thread.

Wayne
and another Wayne here.... 18 months as a markmanship instructor at MCRD Parris Island... always shot high expert with the rifle (couldn't hit the floor with a pistol), went for tyro on the rifle/pistol team

don't own any weapons at all now... the limp-wristed congress critters haven't outlawed cameras... yet.

i have already indicated my photo technique (or lack thereof) in the Street Ninjas thread....

there are a lot of similarities...
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Anyone want to trade for my HK P7PSP?
Old 05-30-2005   #74
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Anyone want to trade for my HK P7PSP?

I'm also a shooter, but haven't been shooting guns much since I started shooting cameras. There's a HK P7 PSP in my safe that I've been trying to decide what to do with (talk about fine German mechanical devices - it makes my Leica M2 seem coarse and primitive).

Anyone want to trade me some RF gear of comparable value for it? I'm not kidding!

ps.
You guys shooting the CZ-52s are aware that the decockers on those are kind of squirrelly and have been known to act as a second trigger at times, right?!! I'm not some kind of HK snob either - I used to own a CZ PCR, and have lusted after a CZ-75SA for a while.
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Old 05-30-2005   #75
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Bit of danger of this turning into the Gunslinger Forum! Yeah, I knew about the unfortunate unreliability of the CZ-52 decocker, good to keep that in mind. There've also been incidents with other pistols' decockers, so I just don't use them at all... Probably a good idea to let the hammer down gently in any case.

You've got a gem, there, sychan in the P7, a very innovative and excellent design. Very fast into action too; designed for police use and good in that role. I think yours is the first variation, isn't it; direct predecessor of the P7 M8. Mine is the little P7 K3 model...
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Old 05-30-2005   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug
38 ACP and 38 Super have a bit larger rim, so they didn't extract or feed well in mine. I use 9x23 Win dies, as the Super's web diameter is a bit smaller. I figure standard-pressure loads for 9mm Largo should be plenty safe in this barrel...

Sounds like we've been having some similar fun with these!
IIRC, I initially used 9mm Winchester Magnum brass that I trimmed to the correct length. I later bought brass from Starline. The only pistol I've used the semi-rimmed cases (38 ACP or 38 Super cases loaded to Largo pressures) in is the Astra 400 which will handle the semi-rim cases OK. The hood on the barrels of the 1911 look-alikes (Stars) can be relieved to seat and fire the semi-rimmed cartridges but I never liked the idea myself. The 9x23 Mag cases you used have a much thicker web than normal cases and gave you an even greater margin of safety.

I load for some not-so-common cartridges such as the .30 Luger and 7.63 Mauser pistol. I've always had a "thing" for the .30 Luger and own a number of different pistols for the caliber.

Walker
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Old 05-31-2005   #77
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Actually I used to be a special forces sniper a few years ago and it has really helped me to shoot handheld in low light situations. Other than that I hate guns, I think owning a gun is a sign of weakness (no offence intended to anyone). For self defence I prefer my hands (I'd like to see someone try to take my leica when I get one)
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Old 05-31-2005   #78
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Sign of weakness? Hmmm... In what way? Immaturity, maybe, and (if they think they do much for 'self-protection') naivety. A friend of mine used to have a Bren gun in the basement in Lhasa but as he said, when the Chinese used tanks and aircraft to invade and subjugate Tibet, there wasn't much you could keep at home that would stop them. Though the Swiss really do seem to have the 'well regulated militia' that the American constitution envisioned.

Like most small boys I had an air pistol and then an air rifle, and I always enjoyed target shooting. At school, we were required to learn rifle shooting (Cadet Corps) and I was pretty good. Then, years later, my late father-in-law was a crack pistol shot (he was head of the Cornell team in the early 30s and he went on getting better for decades) and in the 90s I inherited some of his guns, including a Colt 45 National Match from his Cornell days.

Partly there is the engineering, but there's also the fascination/challenge of using something that is better at what it does than I am: the National Match doesn't limit my marksmanship, just as an MP doesn't limit my photography. It's a different challenge from making things work that don't really want to work, like digital cameras or computers.

Finally, I think that everyone should be required, as part of the school curriculum, to learn to use firearms so that their ideas don't come from Hollywood, where even 44 magnums merely inflict small flesh wounds on the goodies while 22 pistols instantly kill all the baddies, sometimes at 48 to the magazine. They can give them up as soon as they like, but at least they might require some respect for the things and realize that unless you are careful they are seriously dangerous.

Cheers,

Roger
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Old 05-31-2005   #79
BAPIEMAI
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'...In what way? Immaturity, maybe...'

I mean exactly that. Here in Greece owning a gun is illegal and it is very difficult to get a permit. The people which do own guns here think themselves as John Rambo and I don't mean kids but adults in their 30s.

And don't get me started about the army, there was a guy in my platoon who was a regular Commando, tall, strong full of self confidence. The moron when he thought noone watched talked to the gun. So this great Special Forces Commando when he got a transfer he didn't like he was crying like a baby yelling he will quit and escape and stuff like that.

And let's ask this what is the purpose of a gun ? To kill people and for sport. I don't like the idea of killing anyone and for sport shooting I prefer my EOS with 75-300.
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Old 05-31-2005   #80
Roger Hicks
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Dear Bapiemai,

The very illegality of it is one of the worrying aspects. The anti-gun hysteria in Britain is characteristic of a somewhat hysterical nation (the Dangerous Dogs Act is another example, or the current paedophile hysteria): I just don't like being told I can't own a gun. When they were legal I never considered buying one, but once I had firearms (by accident, as I say above), I was damned if I was going to give them up when they were suddenly made illegal.

Then again, if I were the kind of illiberal, authoritarian control freak that Britain has selected for most Home Secretaries in the last decade or more, I suppose I'd want to ban guns too, knowing I'd be a favoured target.

As for the purpose of a gun, apart from shooting Home Secretaries, don't forget too that some farmers can make an excellent case for vermin control with guns. What am I saying, APART FROM Home Secretaries?

Also, well-regulated hunting is defensible; the Germans and Czechs (for example) don't seem to slaughter one another when hunting in quite the same numbers that some other nationalities do. But of course these are long guns rather than pistols -- though where I live, hare are so plentiful this year I reckon I'd be OK with a pistol... And I do like hare!

I fully take your point about the morons and the Rambos but wouldn't you say that even a moron might have slightly more respect for a gun once he'd seen what happened when the bullet hits something -- straight through planks of wood, that sort of thing -- and that the best place for this would be at school, which is rarely associated with excitement and the illicit?

Cheers,

Roger
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