Creepy Old Cameras

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Bill Clark

Hi Roger!

Nice to hear from you!

You probably wouldn't want to live in Minnesota in January! But it's a wee bit warmer of late---global warming?

Yes, you are correct, there are many fine countries on earth to reside. Sound like you live in a beautiful place! How about having a few of us photographer aficionados "invade" your city and saunter around making photographs sometime?

Have a wonderful week!

Dear Bill,

We have a spare room... but only one! Alternatively, there's an hotel and an English-speaking B&B.

For pics of the village, and nearby Noizé (going there tomorrow, maybe 5 miles away) see http://www.rogerandfrances.com/sgall...nce%20new.html

Cheers,

R.

[__hh]

Creepiness is a state of mind, not a property of an innate object.

[reagan]

Originally Posted by hunghang

Creepiness is a state of mind, not a property of an innate object.

Yep. Gotta go along with this. If a camera of the same sort as the OP comes out of my mailbox, it will be kept, fixed, used and enjoyed, enjoyed, enjoyed.

I have two 1930's Leicas, one purchased from Russia, one from Ukraine. Where have they been? Who owned them? What have they been used for? (And baby, they've been used a lot!) I'd love to know, but regardless, they're mine now and used for ..... fun.

[DanOnRoute66]

Originally Posted by sleepyhead

As a Jew, and someone with a personal connection to some awfull events that occurred in the period of time in question, I would probably keep such a camera and use it.

This is partly because I love cameras and I do not blame an inanimate instrument for how it might have been/was used, and partly because I would likely get a private kick occasionally thinking that my people and religion and ideas live on, whilst the regime that tried to destroy it is gone.

Well said.

[Pastor Chris]

Originally Posted by hunghang

Creepiness is a state of mind, not a property of an innate object.

I think you are right as well. For example, I think that clowns are creepy but others just love them, like John Wayne Gasey. Certainly it is not the object itself, but it's story or connotation. As one earlier poster mentioned, I did not find it creepy until I fully knew what it was. So. Not inherently creepy unto itself, but creepy because of its known history, relative to my own perceptions and context.

But this is irrelevant to the original question, "Have you ever encountered a creepy old camera ( a camera that you found creepy), what was it, and what did you do about it?"

I'm not asking if you think my camera was creepy, but have you ever been in a similar situation?

Perhaps another, related question, given that one person's creepy camera is another's highly desired collectible, what is the attraction?

Certainly another can of worms, but I think relevant.

[Rob-F]

I don't think Pastor Chris is averse to owning a Leica on account of it being made in Germany. I believe he finds it creepy to own one that was purchased by the German military during the time of the holocaust, and during the time when Germany was an enemy of the USA and the allied forces. After all, he did later acquire a IIIc with no German military markings, and feels OK about it.

I feel the same way. I am fond of the IIIc, and own three of them, including one that is a "stepper" (i.e. has the "bump" Chris mentioned). But I would not care to own one that was purchased by the German Military during those years. I wouldn't even want one in my house. I have no negative feelings about the Leitz company, for reasons mentioned above: they were obviously not anti-semitic, and were also not nazi sympathizers. They were simply forced to consign some of the camera production to the government.

[Pastor Chris]

Originally Posted by Rob-F

I don't think Pastor Chris is averse to owning a Leica on account of it being made in Germany. I believe he finds it creepy to own one that was purchased by the German military during the time of the holocaust, and during the time when Germany was an enemy of the USA and the allied forces. After all, he did later acquire a IIIc with no German military markings, and feels OK about it.

I feel the same way. I am fond of the IIIc, and own three of them, including one that is a "stepper" (i.e. has the "bump" Chris mentioned). But I would not care to own one that was purchased by the German Military during those years. I wouldn't even want one in my house. I have no negative feelings about the Leitz company, for reasons mentioned above: they were obviously not anti-semitic, and were also not nazi sympathizers. They were simply forced to consign some of the camera production to the government.

Word.

So, anybody ever have a creepy camera?

[cepwin]

Fascinating discussion! Wow I didn't know Leitz is up there with Wallenberg and Shindler in terms of using their situation to save lives. I certainly can understand why one wouldn't feel right using a camera with such a history but I also like the concept of taking something that was used for evil and using it for good. After all a camera has no good or bad on it's own.

[Pastor Chris]

Originally Posted by cepwin

Fascinating discussion! Wow I didn't know Leitz is up there with Wallenberg and Shindler in terms of using their situation to save lives. I certainly can understand why one wouldn't feel right using a camera with such a history but I also like the concept of taking something that was used for evil and using it for good. After all a camera has no good or bad on it's own.

It is fascinating! I am learning a lot myself. After all, isn't that what we are to be about here? Not being right about things necessarily, but learning how to be more right and even where we are wrong.

Much thanks to all who are participating.

[Crazy Fedya]

My grandfather and his brother were drafted to Soviet army around 1943, my great uncle was killed and my grangfather was wounded in Berlin. His two brothers were members of Ukrainian Rebel Army and were executed by NKVD, Their bodies were left on the road in the middle of the village, where their family lived, for three days. His fifth brother was sentenced to 25 years of Gulag, and then 15 years of 20 mile radius settlement form his place of imprisonment. he returned to Ukraine in 1986, and died in 1991. What should bother me? I don't let anything do it. Cameras are not guns. they don't kill people, they are used for taking images, they don't remember. Keep it, use it, and tell the story it might have had.
Sam.

[dugwerks]

how about serial numbers giving you the hebejeebies
try this one on for size camera must have been special order
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NIKON-S-range...item41695ce4fb

[Pastor Chris]

Originally Posted by dugwerks

how about serial numbers giving you the hebejeebies
try this one on for size camera must have been special order
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NIKON-S-range...item41695ce4fb

Oooh, that's a good one! I like the line "that's a joke son"

I hope it sells for you. Really pretty camera too. Are they a unique lens mount?

[goamules]

Every patch of ground on earth has probably been witness to human horrors. Murders and evil occur in each generation. Do you tiptoe around when you walk the ground? If you are creeped out by inanimate objects, you are not thinking about the truth of human nature. All are capable of evil. All are capable of great good. I'd be looking at my fellow humans and thinking about that, rather than trying to get some kind of "evil vib" off a piece of metal.

[goamules]

Many German soldiers, sailors, and airmen who may have used the Leica IIIC where just young men, who joined the service because that's what ALL families at the time told their youth to do. They were loyal to their Units, Comrades, and Country. They fought to protect that. They weren't thinking about the political rhetoric of the Nazi party any more than the drivethrough worker at Chic Filet worries about what her CEO believes. They were....going with the flow...as 99.9% of humans do.

[Livesteamer]

I have a IIIc stepper of 1942 vintage and have never been bothered by it and I'm glad it's now used for mostly family pictures.

Now I have a Mauser rifle, a 98K from 1939 with most of the gun blue worn off. When I pick that up and think about where it's been, what it has seen, how often it has killed and been killed; that's scary, creepy history. Joe

[reagan]

Originally Posted by Pastor Chris

... But this is irrelevant to the original question, "Have you ever encountered a creepy old camera ( a camera that you found creepy), what was it, and what did you do about it?"

Not trying to be argumentative, but the original question was, "Anyone have similar thoughts about such things?" A Y/N question. hunghang's re: that "Creepiness is a state of mind..." is quite relevant. Which translates [I understood] to "No. I've never had similar thoughts."

And I agreed. No, I've never had similar thoughts because hunks of metal don't creep me out. People who do evil things with said hunks of metal? Yeah, they can kinda creep me out. But not the objects themselves. (Actually, a lot of people creep me out. ) But I never expect to feel creepy being around an object.

I know you weren't asking ... but, do I think you should've gotten rid of that particular camera? Oh yeah; definitely. Face it, you just flat didn't like the thing. That's reason enough for me and I'm not judging you at all for it. You did well to dump it and get one you liked. Period.

And I agree also, it is an intersting discussion.

[fotomeow]

Lets not let our imaginations run too wild with the Luftwaffe camera.
As well stated previously, we dont really know its particular history.
It could be bad, it could be good, we dont know.
I am not afraid to say its fascinating from a historical perspective.
A symbol of a bygone era, and thank god we are not all speaking
German in the US right now.

[peterm1]

I once owned a lovely Lieca 111a. I checked its serials and found that the camera was made in 1936, the Elmar 50mm f3.5, slightly earlier in 1935. Both had been back to the factory in the 1950s for a factory upgrade - coating for the lens and flash sync with 111f type shutter collar in the 1950s. It certainly set me thinking about how this camera had spent the war. I am certain it did not see official service as it had no military markings but you never know it could have spent part of the war in some soldiers backpack in the steppes of Russia. At least this is how my imaginings ran at the time. One never knows but its always tempting to think about such things and wonder what horrors could have been captured by the lens.

[Simon Bruxelles]

My immediate reaction was what an odd question, how can a camera, even one used by the Luftwaffe, possibly be "creepy"?
Then I wondered whether i would be comfortable using a camera inscribed with SS insignia. Or what about the camera used by Dr Josef Mengele to record his gruesome medical experiments on Jewish prisoners? Both would creep me out and I would not touch them with the proverbial barge pole.
So inanimate objects can be creepy, it just depends on the individual's degree of sensitivity. A German military Leica would not cross the threshold for me personally but one used by the SS would.
Simon

[I Love Film]

This is pure nonsense.

Originally Posted by panerai

Bear in mind that all German military were not nazi's (i.e. SS).

Most were just regular army and no different than US military regular army.

nazi's were something else

If the camera had SS initials engraved or a swastika. That is something different

Luftwaffe is just a generic German word for airforce

DON

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by goamules

Every patch of ground on earth has probably been witness to human horrors. Murders and evil occur in each generation. Do you tiptoe around when you walk the ground? If you are creeped out by inanimate objects, you are not thinking about the truth of human nature. All are capable of evil. All are capable of great good. I'd be looking at my fellow humans and thinking about that, rather than trying to get some kind of "evil vib" off a piece of metal.

Very true. From my study window I can see a fortress begun a thousand years ago. The Hundred Years' War and the Wars of Religion were both very bloody around here. In my lower garden I have a small water-gate that opens on the river. This sounds much grander than it is: the water-gate is only the size of a normal garden gate, at most a metre wide, and the river is maybe four metres wide. Atop the stone posts either side of the water-gate are stone balls about the size of a football. These were ammunition for late mediaeval/early Renaissance siege weapons. Did these balls kill people, or maim them horribly, before someone gathered them up a century or two ago and used them as ornaments? How much does any of that matter, now?

Addendum: in nearby Loudun, there's a café just near where Urbain Grandier was burned alive. This reminds me that I find Salem's celebration of the witch trials as a tourist attraction a LOT 'creepier' than any nazi artifact I've ever handled.

Cheers,

R.

[I Love Film]

I think it is a reality that extreme Leica fetishists are often Nazi memorabilia fetishists. The two concepts are related.

As a case in point, over a decade ago I used to take tables at big NY camera shows and sell. A well known female Leica repairperson, often discussed here, would often exhibit Nazi paraphernalia at her table, which she shared with some other character.

During one show, I became disgusted because they were exhibiting and selling "GI Joe" type action figures, but wearing SS uniforms, with swastika arm bands, etc.

I felt that these should not be sold at a "camera show", and complained to management to have them removed from display.

[Roger Hicks]

Then again, I do have one piece of Nazi memorabilia of which I am quite fond, an SS Viking Division ring. It belonged to my late brother in law, Dr. Boyd Collins. During World War Two, he worked in military intelligence in the United States. This is why he was the only person I have ever met who belonged simultaneously to both the Nazi party and the communist party. Once, when a raid on the opposition headquarters was arranged, he had to feign illness in order to get out of visiting the rival party in order to beat himself up.

Cheers,

R.

[Pastor Chris]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Then again, I do have one piece of Nazi memorabilia of which I am quite fond, an SS Viking Division ring. It belonged to my late brother in law, Dr. Boyd Collins. During World War Two, he worked in military intelligence in the United States. This is why he was the only person I have ever met who belonged simultaneously to both the Nazi party and the communist party. Once, when a raid on the opposition headquarters was arranged, he had to feign illness in order to get out of visiting the rival party in order to beat himself up.

Cheers,

R.

That is one heck of a story. It is stories like that that might have made me think twice about keeping the Luftwaffe camera.

Perhaps someone knows the reason why the markings on the back might have been obliterated, other than a distaste for them themselves. This one looks like it was done on some sort of machine, versus casually scratched out by someone.

[goamules]

Originally Posted by Pastor Chris

...
I ended up trading it for some other gear and that made me very happy, end of story on that camera, for me anyway...

Originally Posted by Pastor Chris

That is one heck of a story. It is stories like that that might have made me think twice about keeping the Luftwaffe camera.

Perhaps someone knows the reason why the markings on the back might have been obliterated, other than a distaste for them themselves. This one looks like it was done on some sort of machine, versus casually scratched out by someone.

I thought you wrote earlier you already got rid of it? The war markings were scratched out as part of the post war rebuilding process, from what I understand.