6x7 - Mamiya Super or Pentax?

[andreios]

I am looking for input from more experienced members - trying to decide for a 6x7 (or larger) camera, I am mostly concerned about ease of use, comfortability and back-packability.

I am attracted about the Mamiya Super 23 (because of the movements), but also with the Pentax 6x7 cameras.. Any opinions?
(Other possibility would be KISS and go Fuji GSW690/670... Any reason in that? Or a Koni Omega?)

[sevo]

The Mamiya Press and Pentax 67 series are huge and heavy, and I find it difficult to stow them inside a daypack, even when I leave out all food and clothing - a RZ67 outfit would not be much different, by the way.

If it is to be back-packable, there is no real alternative to the Makina 67 or Bessa III - maybe a quality 6x9 vintage folder like a Bessa II, if complex and slow operation and the need for a external meter are no show stopper.

If interchangeable lenses are a must, the lightest/smallest 67 would be a Mamiya 7 - but with one extra lens, that already amounts to three times the back-pack volume of the Makina 67.

[stompyq]

Depends on what you plan to shoot

[andreios]

I mostly shoot sort of landscapes... "cutting out interesting and/or beautiful pieces of the world around me".

[ruby.monkey]

If the big Pentax is an option, size- and weight-wise, then so too is the Mamiya RZ67 Pro II. The hot-swappable rotating back alone makes it a worthwhile choice. Add the range of superb lenses, finders, and accessories, and it becomes a very inviting possibility.

[Frontman]

If you shoot handheld, the Pentax 67 is the best choice. The Mamiya Press cameras are good for shooting different formats, anything from 6x6 to 6x9, and they are also good for shooting handheld.

The RB/RZ series is better when shooting with a tripod. I have an Pentax 67, a couple Mamiya Supers, and an RB system, but I generally shoot MF with a Rolleiflex...

[ChrisN]

Can you be happy with a single focal length? Perhaps a Fuji GW690 or GSW690?

Or even a 4x5 folding field camera with a 120 back?

[nanntonaku]

6x4.5 to 6x9 for the mamiya press backs.

and on the universal you've got polaroid backs that'll take fp-100,.. which from looking at your stream you might like?

but no movements on the universals,...

[Vincent.G]

The 67II + AE prism is very user friendly. Make sure you get those original strap lugs. They are worth every cent. I like the original Pentax strap because it is sturdy and grips very well.

The 67II + lens is not very backpackable IMHO. I have the 67II + 105/2.4 combo and I use it almost everyday and carry it everywhere to photograph my family. I suggest you hold one in your hands to feel the weight and size of the set up.

Good luck!

[Benjamin Marks]

If size and weight are the consideration, and you will be photographing landscapes and need interchangeable lenses than the Mamiya 7 is the camera for you. I had one, but didn't like the slow lenses or the close-focus limitation. I used the money to buy a guitar.

If you have a favorite focal length and can live with the limitation of just one lens, then the Fuji rangefinders (6x7 or 6x9) are viable choices - the cameras are mostly plastic and the lenses are superb. I have had the 6x4.5 and the 6x7 models for 20 years and always hear the siren song of the 6x9 . . .

The P67 and Mamiya press cameras are too heavy, in my opinion, for hiking, particularly when you think of all the other cr@p you have to lug along (tripod, light meter, film, lens filters, water etc.). If you are limited for some reason to a choice between the Pentax 67 and the Mamiya press camera, and you take weight out of the equation, get the Pentax. It was a more popular system, was made for decades and there are plentiful used bodies and lenses around.

The question of movements opens up a whole different can of worms. If you need movements, and I mean really need movements, then just suck it up and get a 4x5 field camera. Toyo was the all around weight champ (Google Kerry Thalman's excellent web page for a write-up -- he used one with Fuji LF glass); although a Badger Graphic is a lower-budget option not a terrible for weight, compared to other view cameras. That is the field camera I use out of the house most often -- mostly because accessories like a compendium shade and bag bellows are (or were) very inexpensive compared to those sold by Linhoff, Zone VI, Sinar etc. Be aware that LF is a whole different league in terms of weight, expense AND expense per film exposed, time and expertise. Helps to have a mule train, sherpa or graduate student at your beck and call. (only mildly joking).

[Calzone]

I do a lot of urban landscape and often carry two MF cameras.

My Plaubel 69W offers shifts, 6x9 negatives and a 21mm equiv. FOV. This camera is kind of perfect if you need shifts and like shooting an ultra-wide.

Paired with a Rollei 3.5F its a nice lite pair.

Also consider the old Fuji's that offer interchangeable lenses. I own three lenses, but because I also own a GM670 and a GL690 I can cover two formats and have 6 FOV's.

Sometimes I carry two Fuji's, but they are heavy.

Cal

[shadowfox]

I can vouch for the quality and the reliability of a Mamiya Universal Press (MUP) kit.
It looks unwieldy in pictures, but in practice, it's surprisingly very comfortable to use, and more importantly, the results are consistently good.

One caveat, make sure you put a new light seal on the backs, or get one that is already refreshed.

[KoNickon]

Originally Posted by Frontman

If you shoot handheld, the Pentax 67 is the best choice.

Oh, I really don't know about that at all. There are a lot of people who'll say that there's vibration from the shutter and/or mirror slap at any speed below 1/250. I would tend to agree.

The original poster asked about the Koni-Omegas, and I think those are a very good choice. The leaf shutters are very vibration-free and make handheld shots easy. And it is actually easy to hand hold. They are not lightweight, but maybe short of the fixed-lens Fujis they're as light and compact as you'll find in 6x7.

These are plentiful on the used market and inexpensive, and the lenses are top-notch, albeit a tad slow. A couple of models also permit mid-roll film changes, the Rapid M and the Omega Rapid 200.

[kuzano]

Originally Posted by andreios

I am looking for input from more experienced members - trying to decide for a 6x7 (or larger) camera, I am mostly concerned about ease of use, comfortability and back-packability.

I am attracted about the Mamiya Super 23 (because of the movements), but also with the Pentax 6x7 cameras.. Any opinions?
(Other possibility would be KISS and go Fuji GSW690/670... Any reason in that? Or a Koni Omega?)

The movements only come into play on the Super 23 if you can find the collapsible lens mount (helical) that collapses back into the body of the Super 23. The early 90 and 100 lenses often had that collapsible helical, but I think they quit making the collapsible helical when the Universal came out. So there are 100 mm lenses that are collapsible and some not. In any event, I believe the 90/100 mm lenses were the only lenses mounted in the collapsible mount, and some of the 100's not so.

I've had many of the bellows type Super 23 and most of the older bodies, but I NEVER actually used the movements. PITA.

If you want movements on roll film, I would suggest a LF camera with a roll film holder or a dedicated 6X9 bellows camera in a technical camera or monorail. The most common 2X3 with a bellows is a Graflex Century, with a "Graflex" roll film back.

[sevo]

Originally Posted by KoNickon

These are plentiful on the used market

Perhaps in the US or Japan, but they are extremely rare in Europe - it rather looks as if they never had been marketed hereabouts. I've only ever seen a single Koni Omega in person, and that was on a US visit. A rare few may have trickled into NATO countries through the US troop presence in cold war times, but the OP is Czech - there probably is not a single Koni (or any of its lenses) in the entire Czech Republic.

[oftheherd]

I can't tell you anything about any of the cameras you mentioned other than the Super Press 23. At my age I find it a bit heavy. When I got it about 1975/6, it didn't seem a problem. I then only had the Super Press 23, a 100mm lens, and one roll film back. I now have a 50mm lens, 65mm lens, 150mm lens, and a 250mm lens (not the f/8). I have 5 roll film backs, the extention tubes, a ground glass back and a ground glass film pack/cut film holder with 12 cut film holders. 36 years on, I would not carry the camera around the mountains and countryside like I used to, much less the whole kit. The camera with lens and roll film back is a bit heavy, but a wide strap helps a lot. All the rest fits in an aluminum case that is really heavy. The 50mm lens is a bit heavy, the 250mm f/5.5 is best carried on an artillery carraige.

The swing back is convenient when you need it. I have yet to need/use it (and I have the collapsable 100mm lens). It is not for the type of movements that you would get with a 4x5 camera, but more for keeping focus with a subject that isn't perpendicular to the film plane. That is, you only get 15 degrees of swing or tilt at the back. No rise, fall, or shift, and only at the back, nothing for the front.

The roll film holders do a very good job of keeping the film flat. They were known for that. All the lenses are great, and all but the 250mm f/8 couple to the RF finder. Check the finder as some have gotten very dim/funky over time, but not all by any means. There are frame lines for the 100mm, 150mm, and 250mm. The others, require an aux finder.

Roll film holders can be hot swapped, as long as they come with dark slides. Make sure they do or that you can make some. Roll film backs come in 6x7 (most common), 6x9 (not so common), and multi-format. I suggest you avoid the latter. Special masks for the viewfinder are required except for 6x9.

I am not giving up my Press 23 kit. But these days I am more likely to grab a folding camera like my 6x9 Zeiss. But 6x7 is a nice format too.

If you have more questions about the Super Press 23, don't hesitate to ask. I really like it and enjoy telling people about it. The only possible down side is their age and the fact they seem to have gotten/kept themselves a little expensive. But that probably attests to their usefulness.

[barnwulf]

I chose the Pentax 67 over the Mamiya because the Pentax lenses were excellent and much lower priced than the Mamiya. - Jim

[andreios]

Thank you for all these answers and hindsights, I'll reply to several of them further on. If I could, I would surely choose a Mamiya 7, but, alas, it is waaayyy out of my price range.

Reason why I limited the choices to Pentax and Mamiya Super is that I wanted exchangeable lenses. I frequently use a rolleicord - very nice, very comfortable, but every so often I wish for something with wider or longer lens..
And I have owned a Mamiya RB67 for a short time - I wasn't mighty pleased about the handling of the camera - but what it did was that it got me hooked on negatives larger than the square 6x6.

[andreios]

Originally Posted by kuzano

The movements only come into play on the Super 23 if you can find the collapsible lens mount (helical) that collapses back into the body of the Super 23. The early 90 and 100 lenses often had that collapsible helical, but I think they quit making the collapsible helical when the Universal came out. So there are 100 mm lenses that are collapsible and some not. In any event, I believe the 90/100 mm lenses were the only lenses mounted in the collapsible mount, and some of the 100's not so.

I've had many of the bellows type Super 23 and most of the older bodies, but I NEVER actually used the movements. PITA.

If you want movements on roll film, I would suggest a LF camera with a roll film holder or a dedicated 6X9 bellows camera in a technical camera or monorail. The most common 2X3 with a bellows is a Graflex Century, with a "Graflex" roll film back.

Thank you about your experience with the movements.. I have considered also a dedicated roll film view-style camera, but I am not very sure about it - I found even 4x5 ground glass too small to compose with (therefore am using 5x7 as my large format of choice). I can't imagine having ONLY the small GG for framing and focusing..

[andreios]

Originally Posted by oftheherd

I can't tell you anything about any of the cameras you mentioned other than the Super Press 23. At my age I find it a bit heavy. When I got it about 1975/6, it didn't seem a problem. I then only had the Super Press 23, a 100mm lens, and one roll film back. I now have a 50mm lens, 65mm lens, 150mm lens, and a 250mm lens (not the f/8). I have 5 roll film backs, the extention tubes, a ground glass back and a ground glass film pack/cut film holder with 12 cut film holders. 36 years on, I would not carry the camera around the mountains and countryside like I used to, much less the whole kit. The camera with lens and roll film back is a bit heavy, but a wide strap helps a lot. All the rest fits in an aluminum case that is really heavy. The 50mm lens is a bit heavy, the 250mm f/5.5 is best carried on an artillery carraige.

The swing back is convenient when you need it. I have yet to need/use it (and I have the collapsable 100mm lens). It is not for the type of movements that you would get with a 4x5 camera, but more for keeping focus with a subject that isn't perpendicular to the film plane. That is, you only get 15 degrees of swing or tilt at the back. No rise, fall, or shift, and only at the back, nothing for the front.

The roll film holders do a very good job of keeping the film flat. They were known for that. All the lenses are great, and all but the 250mm f/8 couple to the RF finder. Check the finder as some have gotten very dim/funky over time, but not all by any means. There are frame lines for the 100mm, 150mm, and 250mm. The others, require an aux finder.

Roll film holders can be hot swapped, as long as they come with dark slides. Make sure they do or that you can make some. Roll film backs come in 6x7 (most common), 6x9 (not so common), and multi-format. I suggest you avoid the latter. Special masks for the viewfinder are required except for 6x9.

I am not giving up my Press 23 kit. But these days I am more likely to grab a folding camera like my 6x9 Zeiss. But 6x7 is a nice format too.

If you have more questions about the Super Press 23, don't hesitate to ask. I really like it and enjoy telling people about it. The only possible down side is their age and the fact they seem to have gotten/kept themselves a little expensive. But that probably attests to their usefulness.

Thank you for your input. Honestly, I did not have in mind putting together SUCH a collection..
I understand the movements of it - and it is precisely that bit of tilt and swing that I was after - to adjust the plane of focus - which is for me the most useful movement while doing my style of "landscapes"..

But maybe it really would be wiser to have something much simpler at hand...

[Moto-Uno]

And if you want to play for cheap,why not try a Mockva-5.Attend
to any light leaks and your off to the races with one easy to carry
big medium format negative and it fit's in my motorcycle jacket pocket.They come up on ebay all the time.Cheap is fun!!!
Regards,Peter

[sevo]

Originally Posted by andreios

And I have owned a Mamiya RB67 for a short time - I wasn't mighty pleased about the handling of the camera

Well, then you might be even more displeased about handling the Press. Even the first generation RB67 was a considerable improvement on its handling - the Press release is a separately attached cable release, the shutter is manually cocked, and unless you use the (rare and expensive) Type III backs it has no double or blank exposure prevention at all.

[andreios]

Originally Posted by sevo

Well, then you might be even more displeased about handling the Press. Even the first generation RB67 was a considerable improvement on its handling - the Press release is a separately attached cable release, the shutter is manually cocked, and unless you use the (rare and expensive) Type III backs it has no double or blank exposure prevention at all.

Hmmm.. I don't think it was the "user interface" that left me unimpressed on the RB67, it was more the question of "handling" in the literal sense - how the beastly thing felt in my hands - it was quite OK on a tripod with a cable release but if I attempted a hand-held shot, it felt VERY uncomfortable to ME.
Cable release and cocking the shutter are absolulety OK with me - I am used to that from large format and double exposure prevention? Well, I do admit that might be missed.. :-)

[nanntonaku]

the mamiya press handles, in the literal sense, like a big rangefinder/SLR.

i got one after shooting tlr's and it was a nice change to get back to. I actually dont like the grip as, like many people, i'm more comfortable holding the camera with my right, and focusing with my left,...

the "S" of the backs become quite a comfortable grip. your average back wont have a shutter release, but the type III back does,... only problem is that they're expensive on their own and often dont come with the cable. if they do come with the cable they're even more expensive,... more expensive than the bloody camera if you go by ebay numbers.

i dont have the special cable, but i dont mind as i find that my index finger is normally near the shutter release when holding anyway,... and more importantly, there's virtually no shake triggering the shutter this way. from the grip i'd often feel myself push a bit too hard shaking the whole camera. mind you though, its still not much of a shake.

i've had handheld 1/8 lowlight shots come out nice and sharp.

also, it can be as complicated or as simple as you want the system to be,... i got a kit because i was going after the 100mm f2.8 and wound up with a ****load of stuff,.... but since i'm in love with the polaroid back + f2.8 combo, i'm getting rid of the extra super 23 body, extra universal body, extra lenses, type3 backs and about 4 groundglass backs.

the universal, 100mm, polaroid back and a couple packs of fp-100 breaks down nicely and fits my messenger/record bag just right. i basically just shoot street, and while it is heavy, its not that bad. I would imagine that if you're used to lugging around your large format this'll be a nice "compact" for you

[Paddy C]

Originally Posted by andreios

Reason why I limited the choices to Pentax and Mamiya Super is that I wanted exchangeable lenses. I frequently use a rolleicord - very nice, very comfortable, but every so often I wish for something with wider or longer lens..

I bought into the P67 system after coming to the same realization. It is a great camera and the lenses are fantastic. All at crazy good prices.

However, it is heavy and I know for sure that I would not want to have to drag it around for an extended period of time. Also, I believe that mirror vibration is an issue and that sometimes gets you into a fight with film speed/aperture/shutter speed (the old triumvirate). One that can only be solved with a tripod. The 6x7 format is just wonderful. Best format ever.