Semi-unsmooth Elmar (1949)

[frederikdalum]

Hello

I have just mounted an Elmar 5cm on my M8, the focus is perfect and sharp, only problem is the way the lens handles. Its not all smooth. It moves, but could use some lubrication. Can I give it anything myself? Or does it need to go somewhere? If yes, is there a place in Amsterdam?

Thank you
Frederik

[colyn]

The lens will need to be stripped down and the helicoid cleaned and relubed. Unless you know how to do this you need to send it to someone who is trained..

[mdarnton]

The 50/3.5 is dreadfully simple: a plate with threads outside for the camera, inside for the focus mechanism as the back end, and a front end that threads into it via external threads, and carries the lens tube. When you're at infinity you can see the focusing threads stick out the back, and when you focus close, the same stick out the front just a bit (the lines on the focus scale numberes point to the threads at their ends).

Take a Q-tip and a toothpick and gently clean out the exposed threads as much as you can, and then put just a few toothpick heads of grease on the exposed threads, and run the lens in and out a couple of times. If you're lucky, you're done, but at any rate, you didn't hurt anything. There's absolutely nothing hidden in there that you can't see, as there is in almost every other lens' focus mechanism.

If you were really bold, you could take out the close-focus stop pin, spin the front right off, clean and grease the threads properly, and put it all back together. There are five ways on a 50/3.5 to start the threads when you put the front back, only one of which will result in the back surface of front part of the lens bedding down completely against the back plate just as the lens reaches infinity, and that is the right threading to use. Getting the threads back together takes a gentle and patient hand, but it's not impossible. It's absolutely essential to start with the front and back pieces perfectly parallel to each other.

If the lens is ONLY rough when it's on the camera, then the problem is a very slight warp in the camera's mounting flange. Not important with most lenses, but the Elmar's mount is so thin it can flex to match the camera's mount, causing the threads to bind. This is a camera problem, not a lens problem, and one that most people wouldn't ever discover.

Here--just for you I took 60 seconds to take mine apart for you. The exposed brass threads are what needs the grease. White lithium grease is good, and it hardly takes any at all, though you have the option here of wiping off whatever extra squeezes out after you put the lens back together.

[mdarnton]

All finished, and back together--about 20 minutes, including photography. Clever people will note the exact place where the lens comes apart, so they can get it started right the first time. I think it might have been with the infinity lock on the front lined up with 3.5 feet on the back piece on mine, or maybe infinity, but I immediately forgot and had to trial-and-error it back together. Notice how it's at infinity now, and the gap between the front and back is completely closed up.

[FrankS]

Thanks so much for this helpful post, Michael!

[tjh]

Originally Posted by mdarnton

If the lens is ONLY rough when it's on the camera, then the problem is a very slight warp in the camera's mounting flange. Not important with most lenses, but the Elmar's mount is so thin it can flex to match the camera's mount, causing the threads to bind. This is a camera problem, not a lens problem, and one that most people wouldn't ever discover.

I have had a strange situation on one IIIc/f conversion body. The Elmar that it came with binds when on the body but not on any other body (I have about 6-7 screwmount bodies.) Several other Elmars of the same vintage don't bind on the IIIc/f. Only the one combination of a particular Elmar and particular body shows the binding.

Tom

[mdarnton]

The reason this lens can be so simple, by the way, is that it is The Lens that the rangefinder was designed and calibrated for. So instead of needing some complex camming that converts the greater or lesser (depending on the lens' focal length) movement in and out of the lens to the specific movement in and out that the cam in the camera wants to see, the back of the lens simply moves in and out, pushing on the cam 1:1. (Notice how your 135mm lens moves in and out a whole lot more than the 50mm as you focus from 1m to infinity, but the cam on the back moves in and out exactly as much as the 50/3.5 Elmar would for the same focus change--nice design problem!)

That's the original concept of how the rangefinder was made to work, and it's a tribute to their good plan that it still works exactly the same today.

[colyn]

Originally Posted by mdarnton

White lithium grease is good, and it hardly takes any at all, though you have the option here of wiping off whatever extra squeezes out after you put the lens back together.

White Lithium grease is the wrong grease to use on the focusing helicoid. It has too low a viscosity rating and tends to bleed (or sweat) causing oil to wick to points where it can do harm. The proper grease is one that has a viscosity of axle grease. In fact I use axle grease. If I recall this is a calcium based grease as opposed to the lithium (heavy in oil) based. You lightly apply with a finger pressing the grease into the threads on both surfaces to mate. Once screwed together wipe off the excess..

I seldom give advise on lens repair in part because if they have to ask they are in most cases lacking in mechanical skills and usually end up causing more damage than good and since this (Elmar) lens is a high priced lens it is best to have a skilled repairman do the job..

I see damage done by unskilled people quiet often. But then I can buy these items cheap and fix them right then sell for profit..

[frederikdalum]

Thank you so much mdarnton! Very nice! Does a normal photostore carry grease or where might i find grease? I live in Amsterdam, if that helps.

[colyn]

Originally Posted by frederikdalum

Thank you so much mdarnton! Very nice! Does a normal photostore carry grease or where might i find grease? I live in Amsterdam, if that helps.

You won't find it in a photo shop. Go to an automotive parts store and ask for axle (or wheel bearing) grease. This is a thick grease and is better suited for greasing the helicoid..

[mdarnton]

You'll find lots of advice on grease. Everything I have ever read recommends lithium as opposed to common axle grease because of axle greases' stiffness and gassing. It's probably better on cheap lenses with big tolerances than tight ones--I know Nikon uses particularly fluid greases for their lenses, for that reason. Lightweight lithium is fine, but you have to wait for a while for it to work around to all the possible places, smoothing out, and stiffening up a bit as a consequence. If you're serious, there's more to it than just slapping on as much grease as you can--for instance long helicals are often only lubed at both ends, letting the middle take care of itself.

Anyway, for more on the topic: http://photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00aNna You can do more web searches and get more opinions. There are plenty of them

A hardware store (whatever they're called there) or maybe a bicycle shop would be a good place to go.

And yes, anytime you get out a screw driver you can screw something up--that's why they call it a SCREW driver. But this particular project is about the easiest you will ever find.

[Harry Lime]

If you are going to do this yourself, make sure you get the proper grease. If not it may evaporate or migrate throughout the lens body and end up on the glass elements. Then you are toast.

Under no circumstances should you use something like 3-in-1 oil. :-)

Look here first, then take a peek on the net if you find something better.

http://www.micro-tools.com/store/~/C...ubricants.aspx


If you are in Europe try mailing it to this fellow in Munich. He's an ex Nikon / Leica technician and did a lot of work for me. His prices are very reasonable and he does excellent work.

Fotokrimskramsdingsbumssachen: Leica, Nikon, Canon, Rollei, Minolta,..
Reiner Muchel
Agnesstrasse 18
80798 München
Tel.: 089 / 27273489

[goamules]

Telling people to send an Elmar out to have the focus lubed is like telling someone to get a personal cook to put mayonnaise on their sandwiches. If they use the right grease, it's a no brainer to lube.

[Keith]

That lithium grease is awsome stuff. I pulled my Industar 26 apart because the tractor grease they lubed them with originally turns into wax. That lens with lithium grease in the helical is a delight to use and the action feels perfectly damped.

[BobYIL]

Locktite 30530 white lithium grease in small tubes. I'm using it since years.

(Drop point 380F..)

[colyn]

Originally Posted by mdarnton

Everything I have ever read recommends lithium as opposed to common axle grease because of axle greases' stiffness and gassing.

Have you read official makers documentation? Most non-repair trained people will recommend white lithium since it is readily available but it is the wrong grease to use.

Applied properly there is no stiffness and newer greases don't out gas any more than all other grease..

Leica originally used a wax based grease which with age dries and crumbles. This is what usually causes stiff focusing. This is also the reason for stiff aperture rings.

I've been a trained repairman since the 70's and all service manuals recommend a high viscosity grease as opposed to lithium and especially silicon for helicoid lube since it does not bleed like low viscosity grease.

Newer autofocus lens on the other hand have little mostly silicon grease since many of the helicoids are made of polycarbonate and there has to be a lot of play for the autofocus motor to drive the focus.

Originally Posted by mdarnton

Lightweight lithium is fine, but you have to wait for a while for it to work around to all the possible places, smoothing out, and stiffening up a bit as a consequence.

This is called bleeding which does not stop which means it can bleed into parts that will cause damage..

Originally Posted by mdarnton

If you're serious, there's more to it than just slapping on as much grease as you can--for instance long helicals are often only lubed at both ends, letting the middle take care of itself.

Never heard of this.

Aluminum will gall without lube and brass will chip...

With everything being built cheap now this may be true but with high quality equipment doing the job right with the right material beats having to repair damage caused by the cheap work..

You never "slap on as much grease as you can".. You apply a small amount to the entire helicoid then work it into the threads with your finger then wipe off the excess before and after reassembly..

[colyn]

Originally Posted by goamules

Telling people to send an Elmar out to have the focus lubed is like telling someone to get a personal cook to put mayonnaise on their sandwiches. If they use the right grease, it's a no brainer to lube.

Many people don't even know how to turn a screwdriver...much less knowing what grease to use...

The cook better not forget to put mayo on my sandwich...

[gb hill]

Originally Posted by colyn

White Lithium grease is the wrong grease to use on the focusing helicoid. It has too low a viscosity rating and tends to bleed (or sweat) causing oil to wick to points where it can do harm. The proper grease is one that has a viscosity of axle grease. In fact I use axle grease. If I recall this is a calcium based grease as opposed to the lithium (heavy in oil) based. You lightly apply with a finger pressing the grease into the threads on both surfaces to mate. Once screwed together wipe off the excess..

I seldom give advise on lens repair in part because if they have to ask they are in most cases lacking in mechanical skills and usually end up causing more damage than good and since this (Elmar) lens is a high priced lens it is best to have a skilled repairman do the job..

I see damage done by unskilled people quiet often. But then I can buy these items cheap and fix them right then sell for profit..

I work in the industry & wheel bearing or axle grease isnt a calcium based grease but a lithium or moly based grease. Any wheel bearing grease should be fine. I wouldn't recommend using white lithium grease it's too thin.

[colyn]

Originally Posted by gb hill

I work in the industry & wheel bearing or axle grease isnt a calcium based grease but a lithium or moly based grease. Any wheel bearing grease should be fine. I wouldn't recommend using white lithium grease it's too thin.

Is calcium based grease made anymore?

[clayne]

Originally Posted by colyn

I seldom give advise on lens repair in part because if they have to ask they are in most cases lacking in mechanical skills and usually end up causing more damage than good and since this (Elmar) lens is a high priced lens it is best to have a skilled repairman do the job..

I see damage done by unskilled people quiet often. But then I can buy these items cheap and fix them right then sell for profit..

Except that the above lens really isn't an example of that. The reader still has the decision available to follow the directions or abstain from repairing the lens on their own. It's great that you know how to fix lenses (as do I), but people have to learn somewhere and for a lens of this utter simplicity it's hard screw up.

Common methodology for the helicoid is small rough scribes in a non-contact area of both pieces right as they just separate threads. But this lens is so simple that marks and references points on the lens itself should be good enough if one takes note of them.

[colyn]

Originally Posted by clayne

But this lens is so simple that marks and references points on the lens itself should be good enough if one takes note of them.

Most people don't take the time to make simple marks or take note of them...or they mark it with a grease pencil which then gets rubbed off during cleaning..

I've bought 2 Elmars in the last year that the owner thought he could clean only to find out he couldn't get it re-aligned..

If you know how fine but if you have to ask how then you should consider whether to take it to a trained repairman..

[David Hughes]

Yup, and a repair technician will have the right grease in stock and won't have to buy a 5 gall drum of it specially for one job. Plus he or she will have the screwdrivers that fit the screws.

And, if asked, will say that he/she ground them down by hand on an oilstone and not on an electric drill that would draw its temper... That's a good question to ask, imo.

As the man said, if you have to ask you shouldn't be doing it.

Regards, David

PS And I was taught (60's) that silicone oils and greases are for plastics and not for metals... So when did that change?

[Blanc]

No lithium in hellicoids for me neither. I use carbon based or wax based following maker's instructions.

Everyone can do whatever they want to, but those last two years (and my overeseas collegues will confirm or not), at least 40% of my business is due to wrong diy attempts. In 90% of those cases the clients got at least twice much to pay than a client that would've sent the same camera with the same original problem.
And at least 1/3rd of those clients just bought the gear paying it more than what it's worth.

So, yes everyone can do what they want, but most people should get their hands in a bike, then a car then toasters, ovens, tv... and then one day start climbing the camera repair ladder begining with the basics (instamatics, boxes...).

For those who got success, great for you, why don't you show us the reasults of your gear on FTM benches and collimators?

[mdarnton]

Well, I repair things for a living, too, as well as teach a summer course in what I do, and there are a couple of things to remember: one is that like police who only see people at their worst, repairmen only get to see the mistakes. Second, most people really aren't idiots, and can learn to do things, but they have to start somewhere.

I've been reading up on grease for helicals, and the only thing that's come out of it is that every person has his favorite grease, and thinks the ones that everyone else uses are dangerous and unworthy, and that their users are incompetent idiots. Most helical grease discussions turn into routs, not just this one.

However, as I said at the beginning, the 50/3.5 Elmar is the simplest lens you are ever going to see, virtually anyone can fix it, and incidentally, the path from the helical to the diaphragm blades in that lens is a long and winding path. It just ain't gonna happen.

If you think that Nikon knows something about what they're doing, here's where you can get what they use: http://www.camerarecycler.com/grease...ens_grease.htm

Argue amongst yourselves. :-)

[Blanc]

Originally Posted by mdarnton

Well, I repair things for a living, too, as well as teach a summer course in what I do, and there are a couple of things to remember: one is that like police who only see people at their worst, repairmen only get to see the mistakes. Second, most people really aren't idiots, and can learn to do things, but they have to start somewhere.

That's a general fact indeed, I'm probably influenced by all the morron job I can see everyday, but a fact is that a lot of people nowadays try to get their hands where they shouldn't. I feel quite bad to tell people they messed up their gear instead of fixing it, but my job is to make it work at it's best, and a lot of DIY repairs don't.
I'm the first one to stand up for self teaching, but usually people that want to do things by themselves start low to get slowly higher and higher, I've never heard of a wood amateur that started by making a cabinet, usually they start with benches, tables and chairs, and then as their skills and equippement grow they go to bigger projects. This should be the same with cameras IMHO.

Originally Posted by mdarnton

I've been reading up on grease for helicals, and the only thing that's come out of it is that every person has his favorite grease, and thinks the ones that everyone else uses are dangerous and unworthy, and that their users are incompetent idiots. Most helical grease discussions turn into routs, not just this one.

Depends on who is talking, a traditional repair shop got at least 6-7 different greases for helicals only used on relation to the materials and their interractions used to make the helical. I've got 12 of them to be able to deal with some weird situations, and quite often I need to use specific charges or blends for a really specific purpose (delrin/iron, Copper/plastic...)

Originally Posted by mdarnton

However, as I said at the beginning, the 50/3.5 Elmar is the simplest lens you are ever going to see, virtually anyone can fix it, and incidentally, the path from the helical to the diaphragm blades in that lens is a long and winding path. It just ain't gonna happen.

True/not that true, that's a simple lens, but I saw quite a lot of people messing with it, and more precisely with the inner treatment of the lenses, that was a great trial and error era in terms of treatments and some recieved a Sodium Fluorure+ Baryum fluorure inner coating, and sodium fluorure is quite easily destroyed by some lubes.
Cleaning helical without cleaning the blades and their crown is not a good idea IMHO if you're doing something to it completely.

Originally Posted by mdarnton

If you think that Nikon knows something about what they're doing, here's where you can get what they use: http://www.camerarecycler.com/grease...ens_grease.htm

Argue amongst yourselves. :-)

NPC lubes showed are used by nikon for their modern plastic threaded zooms and fix focus lenses, that's true, they could work but it's a PTFE load (except I40 &GE-7) perfect for petroleum derivatives lube but nor really for brass.