Will you pay $7,195 for the new 50 'cron Asph?

[steveyork]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

Virtually no professionals, which is what I meant when I said I couldn't afford one because I'm a photographer, buy new Leica gear. I have two M6 bodies, both bought used. No way will I even consider buying anything new from them. Ever. Even if I won the lottery. Their pricing shows a gigantic contempt for those who make photography their life's work, and I refuse to support it. I make sure my Leica purchases do not benefit them one cent.

No top end gear is cheap, no matter the company.

[robbeiflex]

Nope, I've got other priorities. It sure would be nice to have the spare change around to do it though. Meanwhile, in the real world I call my own the C-Sonnar rules for my M6 and I'm very happy with that combo. Now it's back to work as a non-photographer to make the money to afford these nice toys.

Cheers,
Rob

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

My problem is with Leica basically abandoning working photographers. For that reason, I will never buy a new item from them. That's my right in a free society, and if you don't like it, well too damn bad. The people who buy my work don't give a damn about who I buy my gear from; my attitudes toward Leica have not hurt me a bit.

I find it fascinating how many people will blindly defend businesses. We owe business NOTHING. We're the customers, they owe US. I've said this time and again: people who fall all over themselves to defend the actions of businesses only hurt themselves through the higher and higher prices they end up paying when corporate leaders realize that their customers are idiots who will pay ANYTHING.

Leica is the ONLY company that cares about protecting its consumers. Canon/Nikon/Sony pumps out new models every freaking year and they want you to always buy the latest stuff and dump your old gears. Leica on the other hand, "promises" their customers that their gears will not lose a lot of values, and they stick to a production cycle that makes sense to the users. Only Leica and Hasselblad still have parts for all those old cameras that you have from the 50s.

I hate businesses myself in general. Most of them do nothing but harm. But Leica is one of the rare few that actually does what's right and treats their workers fairly. If you list the 20 worst companies in the world. US probably has the majority of them.

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Araakii

If you list the 20 worst companies in the world. US probably has the majority of them.

Douche-baggery abounds!

If the US is so horrible, stop buying things that are made here.
I would guess that China has a slightly more horrible track record with employee working conditions, environmental issues, and fair pricing.
The US is under a microscope because our businesses and trade practices are out there for inspection, unlike the vast majority of the rest of the world.

[whitecat]

Just too much!

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by bob338

If the US is so horrible, stop buying things that are made here.

Haha, the US is horrible precisely because most things are not made here.

[back alley]

i see we are about ready to close this thread...

[braver]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

We owe business NOTHING. We're the customers, they owe US.

You're not a customer until you pay though. People are paying Leica, Leica is giving them what they want, exchange complete.

Companies don't work for anyone but themselves, which is kinda cold and unpersonal but the other way around doesn't work out either. Companies that think they owe stuff to people who aren't their customers don't last long... in the end people that are customers are no different that people who run companies (in many cases people are both, imagine that!). Leica can't sell their cameras for cheap because artists have no money, artist without money (like myself by the way) should buy cheaper cameras. If you don't agree, try communism and see if you like the quality of cameras that produces.

Makes me think about a recurring pattern with bands, especially on the forums about the bands. I always hate it when bands 'listen to their fans', it makes them churn out crap instead of risking their neck and trying something new. They soon stop being relevant. Still lotsa fans think the band owes them stuff just because their fans and downloaded all their music.

[veraikon]

I won´t. But comparing the data on paper. http://de.leica-camera.com/assets/fi...=file_6720.pdf vs e.g. http://www.zeissimages.com/mtf/zm/Pl..._50mm_ZM_e.pdf I can say the Apo Summicron is impressive. I wait for real photos. But I´ll never buy it - I ´am far out side the target group

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Araakii

Haha, the US is horrible precisely because most things are not made here.

You got me there.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Originally Posted by braver

You're not a customer until you pay though. People are paying Leica, Leica is giving them what they want, exchange complete.

Companies don't work for anyone but themselves, which is kinda cold and unpersonal but the other way around doesn't work out either. Companies that think they owe stuff to people who aren't their customers don't last long... in the end people that are customers are no different that people who run companies (in many cases people are both, imagine that!). Leica can't sell their cameras for cheap because artists have no money, artist without money (like myself by the way) should buy cheaper cameras. If you don't agree, try communism and see if you like the quality of cameras that produces.

Makes me think about a recurring pattern with bands, especially on the forums about the bands. I always hate it when bands 'listen to their fans', it makes them churn out crap instead of risking their neck and trying something new. They soon stop being relevant. Still lotsa fans think the band owes them stuff just because their fans and downloaded all their music.

Most businesses want to expand their customer base. Leica doesn't even try. I'm not 'without money'. I bought a Canon 5DmkII in January for $3000. That's 3 months wages for the average person where I live, so it was not chump change. Canon wanted my business, Leica loses it because when I do buy Leica gear (remember my two M6 bodies and 50mm Summicron?), I buy USED, which gives them zero benefit.

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

Most businesses want to expand their customer base. Leica doesn't even try. I'm not 'without money'. I bought a Canon 5DmkII in January for $3000. That's 3 months wages for the average person where I live, so it was not chump change. Canon wanted my business, Leica loses it because when I do buy Leica gear (remember my two M6 bodies and 50mm Summicron?), I buy USED, which gives them zero benefit.

What makes you think Canon wants you so badly? They're interested in moving as many units as possible, not nurturing clients.

[digitalintrigue]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

Most businesses want to expand their customer base. Leica doesn't even try.

Businesses are for profit-making to benefit the shareholders. Market share might be important to some, but not all.

Leica simply cannot compete against Canikon. They have a niche all to themselves, it would be folly to try to court yours (or anyone else's) business with a DSLR for $3k.

[Ken Ford]

Originally Posted by bob338

What makes you think Canon wants you so badly? They're interested in moving as many units as possible, not nurturing clients.

Same = same.

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

I buy USED, which gives them zero benefit.

Buying used still indirectly benefits Leica, because the other person who might want to buy your used would have to buy a new one if there's no used in the market.

[sahe69]

Originally Posted by bob338

What makes you think Canon wants you so badly? They're interested in moving as many units as possible, not nurturing clients.

If that was right they would be just shipping max profit crap out and not responding to warranty claims. Any company with even a mid term plan to survive cannot neglect customers. There's no way around it and that's good.
Which partially strikes me also with Leica. The products are undeniably good, but for the price (in my personal perception) there's too many quality issues and too many market standard features missing.

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Ken Ford

Same = same.

Elaborate, please.

[Arvay]

Never. Insane

[JayM]

Originally Posted by sahe69

If that was right they would be just shipping max profit crap out and not responding to warranty claims. Any company with even a mid term plan to survive cannot neglect customers. There's no way around it and that's good.
Which partially strikes me also with Leica. The products are undeniably good, but for the price (in my personal perception) there's too many quality issues and too many market standard features missing.

The quality issues part of this is a big problem for me. Kind of scary to buy a 5+ thousand dollar camera that might need thousands of dollars of out of warranty repair work, or a lengthy stay at a repair center. If they really are selling the ultimate craftsmanship that they claim there would not be such ridiculous problems.

[Ken Ford]

Originally Posted by bob338

Elaborate, please.

The more you nurture, the more you sell.

[dogberryjr]

Originally Posted by Viktor Sebastian

Dang, I was hoping that was a real forum. I would have loved to partake in the responses.

Yeah, he got me too.

[marcr1230]

Companies are in business to make profits. if they can't make profits, they can't stay in business long. whether or not the company cares for its customers is irrelevant. Either way, those that sell enough product at prices high enough to support the enterprise continue. Those that don't, don't. part of you business model is to get customers happy, in so much as that keeps products selling. simple.

Maintaining a parts supply for a 60 year old camera, is a business decision, it establishes a reputation that makes the customer willing to pay a high price, knowing his purchase will be supported for a lifetime.

Creating an insanely expensive lens , presumably of stellar quality - is part of Leica's genetic code. whether or most of us can afford it or will buy it - they get a tremendous halo effect on their system. this business model doesn't work for just any company - but it has worked for Leica.

Even if I could buy this lens, it'd never happen, I may be crazy, but not that crazy. I would never use it enough, or perceive the difference in quality.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Originally Posted by bob338

What makes you think Canon wants you so badly? They're interested in moving as many units as possible, not nurturing clients.

They wouldn't move 'as many as possible' if they didn't produce very good equipment at a price that people can afford. The fact that they produce cameras used by an enormous percentage of professionals shows that they want us as customers. They make equipment that does what we need at a price working pros can afford. Did you really need that spelled out?

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Ken Ford

The more you nurture, the more you sell.

Do you really think CaNikon have become market leaders by nurturing their customer base? I don't. I think they advertise the s**t out of their products and keep the prices competitive by selling volume instead of quality. I don't have a source for this, but I remember reading in a book years ago that in the early 60s Nikon supplied a bunch of newspapers with free, or at cost, gear for their PJs. This is when Leica lost that market. People started seeing PJs using Nikons and assumed they must be the best, just like they did with Leicas a decade before.

If Nikon was nurturing its base they would have come out with a digital SP by now. They reissued the SP and S3, which was pretty amazing, but they then went on to cry that they lost money on it.

If Cosina was nurturing their base, they would have come out with a digital RF by now. I think Cosina does a pretty good job with most everything they do, but they have really dropped the ball on this issue. People want an affordable digital RF and they are probably the only company that can make it, and they won't. They are serving the whim of their owner, not their customers.

I think Leica is serving their customers, and the whim of their owners. Leica could have sat back for another 3 years and let the M9 peter out before introducing anything new. But they didn't, they introduced a (potentially) revolutionary camera. They also introduced a new 50mm when they could have left the lowly Summicron alone, where it would sell in its present formulation for many more years. They also introduced the Summarit line for people on a budget.

Anyway, just my .02.

Bob

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

Did you really need that spelled out?

I guess is did, I'm one of the last people here to realize that you know everything.