New Leica M digital Monochrome camera announced

[Tim Gray]

So you going to get one Jay? I want. The stories of M9 reliability scare me off. Then the price kidney punches me and kicks me down the steps.

[victoriapio]

Originally Posted by Sylvester

Then I hope Voigtlander will exploit this market or something... Just stick a nice sensor in a R2M and I'll be happy...

Although they have said otherwise, perhaps THIS Leica announcment will wake up Voightlander and Epson with a FF RD-2

[mrrobleyleica]

Originally Posted by tightsqueez

I love the M9 output but hated the worry and fear of carrying one around. NEVER in my life have I felt that way with any of my film M's. For me this outweighed the positive aspects of owning a digital Leica. Until they get this right the extra time and effort with film is worth it.

I'm in a similar situation, starting to worry how long the M9 will last after the warranty expires, it's a while to go. My experience would put me off buying another digi Leica, especially one costing over £6000. Mine is only about 8 months old but has been back to Solms twice for 5- 6 weeks per visit. The first time they did nothing but clean it and calibrate ignoring the long row of bad pixels, so it went back for a sensor remap I presume.

Leica here are brilliant and I had a loan camera, so not so bad.

I've had it back for a few weeks and it's doing a new odd thing. I really don't trust it now, it doesn't like SanDisc still so I must get new cards - and although I love most of the results and the m rangefinder concept, the joy of owning one is not as you'd expect.

Because I love the lenses I can't see a viable option other than extended warranty deals etc. Now there is an M9M option, but I'm not in a position to go down this new route, even if I had the money. If the M10 is a different beast (part made by someone reliable like Panasonic) I hope to trade up then, still depending on the cost.

I'm not a pro, but if I was I'd never use new Ms. I've been using Nikons since 1978 (that long, that feels bad) and other than one dead pixel on a D700 which was exchanged I've never had a problem.

[anjoca76]

I love my Leicas. I have gotten rid of most all other gear in the past year because I realize that none of them bring me the same pleasure or results as they do. If I could afford an M9, even though I don't much care for digital cameras, I would buy one. The images I see from them are amazing.

But $7000 for a camera that only shoots black and white is about the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I don't care if the quality is incredible and all that crap. That's insane to me. If it were half that price I would still think it's ridiculous and would still personally never buy one, but I could at least understand why others who are more into b&w than I might.

It's a beautiful camera. I'm sure it's a joy to hold, and to use, and from the few sample images I've seen, it captures excellent quality photos. It is a Leica, after all.

But really? $7000? For a digital camera that doesn't even have the option of color? Sorry, Leica, this one's beyond me...

EDIT: Oops, I was off on the price. My mistake. It's $7,950! Yikes.

[braver]

You know, now that we're on the price of camera's.

A new Canon 1DX is 6500 euros. A Nikon D4 is over 6100. The M9M will be 6800. So really, how is the price of the M9M all that special when it's only marginally above the other top of the line maximum performance camera's? I know a D4 can do things the M9M can't but that also goes the other way around. Really, prices across the entire market have shifted upwards (just look at Fuji's new offerings), and Leica's M range is at the top but not in any way over the top if you look at the competition.

I don't have that kind of money, but evidently enough people do to sustain this market and these prices. I imagine a professional wedding photographer looking to expand his b&w portofolio will have a boat load of fun with this one.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by braver

You know, now that we're on the price of camera's.

A new Canon 1DX is 6500 euros. A Nikon D4 is over 6100. The M9M will be 6800. So really, how is the price of the M9M all that special when it's only marginally above the other top of the line maximum performance camera's?

I think the problem is that Canon and Nikon offer cheaper alternatives (5D MKIII / D800) that are still awesome cameras. Leica doesn't.

[digitalintrigue]

So the X2 or Vlux cameras are not awesome.

[cfritze]

So can't the the MM be mimicked in software - tweak M9 output to resemble an MM? Re sharpness - write a RAW converter that instead of interpolating the bayer pattern into color treats each photowell as a separate datapoint. If one knows the chromatic response of the individual elements of the bayer color pattern on that sensor, wouldn't that give you the increased resolution of the MM on an M9 (in BW), plus allows you to mimic filters over BW film also?

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by digitalintrigue

So the X2 or Vlux cameras are not awesome.

Right. They aren't bad, but they are not slightly dumbed down M9s (as Canon and Nikon's 2nd level FF cameras are). They don't offer the versatility of the M.

[tightsqueez]

Originally Posted by Tim Gray

So you going to get one Jay? I want. The stories of M9 reliability scare me off. Then the price kidney punches me and kicks me down the steps.

Oh, don't tempt me! I'll get one just because you want one. Maybe I'll trade that Noctilux paperweight. Ha ha.

Actually, I do want one but more importantly would want one to WORK! Reliable digital cameras exist, as I have owned one before. But do I have to buy five or six at $7k - $8k a pop until I find the right one? Enough of Leica making me out to look like a sadist.

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

To many of us, Leica M cameras are exactly what we like in a camera. However, many of us cannot afford to keep buying new things from Leica at this point. What was once just expensive, is now bordering on astronomical (in comparison to other companies). If you are into film, then you have many options. If you are into digital, you do not have the same options. Luckily Fuji makes some cool stuff, but they aren't mechnical RF cameras.

We all want a lot of things in our lives. But shouldn't people realize that they don't always get what they want? What makes them think that they should get whatever they want at the prices they can afford?

[cfritze]

Originally Posted by cfritze

So can't the the MM be mimicked in software - tweak M9 output to resemble an MM? Re sharpness - write a RAW converter that instead of interpolating the bayer pattern into color treats each photowell as a separate datapoint. If one knows the chromatic response of the individual elements of the bayer color pattern on that sensor, wouldn't that give you the increased resolution of the MM on an M9 (in BW), plus allows you to mimic filters over BW film also?

Nevermind. Duh. I see why this can't work.

[Tim Gray]

Originally Posted by tightsqueez

Actually, I do want one but more importantly would want one to WORK! Reliable digital cameras exist, as I have owned one before. But do I have to buy five or six at $7k - $8k a pop until I find the right one? Enough of Leica making me out to look like a sadist.

Really makes $8k hard to swallow with all the reports of sending them back for 1-2 month stretches.

At least the repair bills are cheap out of warrantee

[Keith]

Balancing out the cost of this camera against continuing to buy black and white film is a strange argument to justify it's price IMO. If the M9M costs the same as say 1600 rolls of Tri-X make the comparison on an individual exposure basis ... that much Tri-X equates to around 60,000 shuter actuations on the Leica and lets face it that's not common! When was the last time you saw any digital M in our classifieds with a high shutter count ... the majority of them seem to have 10,000 or less ... people don't shoot them like Nikons or Canons by rule. They buy the damned things, molly coddle them until they get bored with them and then move them on for the next incarnation of their photographic fantasies!

[BobYIL]

Originally Posted by Keith

When was the last time you saw any digital M in our classifieds with a high shutter count ... the majority of them seem to have 10,000 or less ... people don't shoot them like Nikons or Canons by rule. They buy the damned things, molly coddle them until they get bored with them and then move them on for the next incarnation of their photographic fantasies!

What the majority M shutter counts show in one year, some real professionals do in ONE day.. (True! Marianne Oelund is not only a pro but a very knowledgeable engineer to furnish all technical data about her measurements on the new models..)

Check here to see what some counters show:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&message=4136444

[Michiel Fokkema]

Originally Posted by emiguevara

To put it on perspective, here in Norway its price will be roughly equivalent to 1000 rolls of Tri-X (without processing costs). Since I shoot about 200 rolls of film every year (and some 10k digital frames too), the M9M would be payed for in about 5 years. Considering processing costs and time, I think it would be payed for in 3 years. If it only could completely satisfy the characteristics I like from B&W film, it would be totally worth it. Time and more images from the camera will tell.

Its pictures will still not look like Tri-X. They still will look like digital pictures, very sharp ones, that's for sure. But digital.
That's why they bundle Silver efex with this camera.

[eleskin]

My trusty M8 now has over 80,000 shutter releases or exposures and it keeps on ticking and in fact, a few Months ago it got a licking when I tripped over my tripod and my M8 pancaked on a floor of solid marble. After that all I had to do is adjust the rangefinder with a hex wrench and I was back in business! I guess my M8 has strong Portuguese DNA with a dash of German gestalt!!!

[Keith]

Originally Posted by eleskin

My trusty M8 now has over 80,000 shutter releases or exposures and it keeps on ticking and in fact, a few Months ago it got a licking when I tripped over my tripod and my M8 pancaked on a floor of solid marble. After that all I had to do is adjust the rangefinder with a hex wrench and I was back in business! I guess my M8 has strong Portuguese DNA with a dash of German gestalt!!!

But lets face it you're obviously not the rule of thumb here!


I predict that this M9M will cause cause more discussion and hand wringing on this forum, not to mention downright brawls, than we've seen for some time!

[aeturnum]

I think Leica is running a risk of pricing themselves out of the common photography market and losing mind share. Their prices are closer to medium format than they are to high-end FF cameras. I also think they've hurt themselves by sticking so closely to the template from their film cameras. Digital rangefinders are fantastic, and have a place in photography, but for a camera company that used to be focused on creating new camera technology Leica has been pretty lackluster recently.

I love my film rangefinder, and I would love to have a digital rangefinder that I feel is worth the money. I would also love to see a new direction from Leica and I think Leica is better positioned to do so than any other large player to try things.

While I love the idea of a B&W digital rangefinder, I'm in a small minority and I worry Leica will trap themselves by producing niche cameras in a niche of a niche (the high end of digital in the high end of rangefinders).

[bobby_novatron]

Probably one of the most interesting and controversial cameras to be released in recent memory. God bless the early-adopters -- I'll let them sort it out while I wait on the sidelines.

[DRabbit]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

I think the problem is that Canon and Nikon offer cheaper alternatives (5D MKIII / D800) that are still awesome cameras. Leica doesn't.

I always hoped that Leica would decide to introduce some mid-level M (digital CL?) at a more affordable price. Keep the 1.3 crop of the M8. *shurg* I know it's a pipe dream. I think anyone but very well-off enthusiasts and niche professionals are not their market anymore

[tstermitz]

Mike Johnston at the Online Photographer has a great article about Why Would a Digital Camera Have a B&W-Only Sensor? Mike is also the person who set the One Camera, One Year challenge The Leica as Teacher:

I would just like to throw this out there for what little it's worth...if any young or beginning photographer of real ambition within the sound of my voice would like to radically improve his or her photography quickly and efficiently, I suggest shooting with nothing but a Leica and one lens for a year. Shoot one type of black-and-white film

Those articles persuade me of the artistic value of the M9M. $8k is too rich for my blood, and I really think Leica should have priced this as a gateway drug to Lens Buying Addiction, maybe $4k.

One other thought about comparative values:

When it comes to color, digital cameras can approximately compete in image quality with the next larger film format, i.e. APS with 35mm film, FF with 645mm film. Leica lenses can certainly resolve to 36M sensor like on the Nikon D800, which is already killing the market for the Leica S2.

Does the Leica M9M match the performance of medium format B&W?

Leica lenses are up to that task, surely. Dynamic range maybe not.

[mervynyan]

I have second thought about this. One road, I always carry 2 bodies, one with color/slide, one with b&w. The argument is always that whether digital color can replace slide film characteristics, the film always wins. Now the amount of time spent one developing, wet printing and photo book finishing, everything takes few months at least.

Let's see more review and real world photos, if it can match MF print in b&w, I might consider getting one, along with slide films body-

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by DRabbit

I always hoped that Leica would decide to introduce some mid-level M (digital CL?) at a more affordable price. Keep the 1.3 crop of the M8. *shurg* I know it's a pipe dream. I think anyone but very well-off enthusiasts and niche professionals are not their market anymore

I think most people here are waiting for that mid-level Leica. I have a feeling it'll never come as well. Oh well.

[Michel154]

some one could send there M8 to have it converted to black and white
nothing new... this guy have been doing it for years
http://www.maxmax.com/b&w_conversion.htm