New Leica M digital Monochrome camera announced

[Mike Ip]

They advertise this camera as ISO 10,000.... Has anyone tried to manually focus in ISO 10,000 light? Good luck....

[Timmyjoe]

I shoot, on average, 50% of my images with a Leica M2-S and Tri-X, so the M9 Monochrom seems interesting. But then when I looked at the samples on Leica's web page, the one issue that has always concerned me about a digital B&W sensor looks like it hasn't been solved.

I use color filters with my M2-S to get particular effects in a shot. I know how Tri-X responds to each of my filter colors. I've never been convinced that a digital sensor would respond the same way.

As an example, here is a shot from Leica's web page of the M9 Monochrom. Here they used an orange filter to add dramatic effect to the blue, cloud filled sky:



And here is an example from one of my Tri-X shots of a similar situation where I used a similar filter to get a dramatic sky effect:



While the orange filter in the M9 Monochrom shot darkened the blue sky, it also darkened and muddied up the white clouds. With Tri-X film, the filter darkened the blue sky but left the white clouds a puffy bright white.

Best,
-Tim

[Nikon Bob]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Yeah, I was grievously wrong too. Can't quite see the attraction myself, but best of luck to 'em.

Cheers,

R.

Say it ain't so, never thought we would agree on anything much less both be wrong on the same account.

Bob

[mervynyan]

Originally Posted by Mike Ip

They advertise this camera as ISO 10,000.... Has anyone tried to manually focus in ISO 10,000 light? Good luck....

without taking into consideration of reciprocal failure like the film does, you can do ev0 f2 at 4 sec instead 4 min (I think- so there are some use for high iso, only wait to see how the grains look.

[victoriapio]

[quote=Roger Hicks;1876959]Yeah, I was grievously wrong too. Can't quite see the attraction myself, but best of luck to 'em.

Cheers,

R.[/QUOTE
the only thing i was right about was that I knew it wouldnt be the M10. :-)

but i am dying to see what the RFFers who pleaded for such a camera will think about it. It's no different that carrying two Ms, one with color and one with bw .... EXCEPT the cost of course. If you can live with the faults of the M system and absolutely want the finest bw quality in a 35mm sized system, I see the appeal. Yes, I guess i am trying to talk my self into it

I am so stunned that they actually did it, I am curious what the reaction will be to non-Leica shooters. Certainly the Leica film shooters have already chimed in as have people with contempt for this type of experiment. But getting over the surprise from this announcement, I wonder if it WILL make BW photography more popular?

And more importantly, WILL die-hard Leica M film shooters actually be convinced to give digital a try (in black and white at least)?
OC

[mervynyan]

Originally Posted by Timmyjoe

I shoot, on average, 50% of my images with a Leica M2-S and Tri-X, so the M9 Monochrom seems interesting. But then when I looked at the samples on Leica's web page, the one issue that has always concerned me about a digital B&W sensor looks like it hasn't been solved.

I use color filters with my M2-S to get particular effects in a shot. I know how Tri-X responds to each of my filter colors. I've never been convinced that a digital sensor would respond the same way.

As an example, here is a shot from Leica's web page of the M9 Monochrom. Here they used an orange filter to add dramatic effect to the blue, cloud filled sky:



And here is an example from one of my Tri-X shots of a similar situation where I used a similar filter to get a dramatic sky effect:



While the orange filter in the M9 Monochrom shot darkened the blue sky, it also darkened and muddied up the white clouds. With Tri-X film, the filter darkened the blue sky but left the white clouds a puffy bright white.

Best,
-Tim

I guess orange/red/yellow/green filters are some kind of color filter, so you add back color filter in front of the lens to reduce illumination of the scene all together, instead of separating color ray.

[Harry Lime]

Well, the test images look very crisp, the tonality is very nice, but I still want to see some dynamic range figures. It better be an improvement over the performance of the M9, which is a little weak at 7-9 stops. I'm hoping for 12-14 stops.

But in any case at $7950 it's mute point. I would need two bodies and I'm no banker.

Guess I'll just keep feeding my six analog M bodies more Tri-X...

[victoriapio]

TIMMYJOE - the control of colors in Photoshop"s RAW processing that convert color to black and white might handle it better. but perhaps the clouds were not that bright to begin with in the Leica web site shot???/

[kmallick]

Originally Posted by Mike Ip

They advertise this camera as ISO 10,000.... Has anyone tried to manually focus in ISO 10,000 light? Good luck....

Steve Huff did and posted some other images on his site.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2012/0...ced-1st-shots/

[BobYIL]

Originally Posted by Timmyjoe

I shoot, on average, 50% of my images with a Leica M2-S and Tri-X, so the M9 Monochrom seems interesting. But then when I looked at the samples on Leica's web page, the one issue that has always concerned me about a digital B&W sensor looks like it hasn't been solved.

I use color filters with my M2-S to get particular effects in a shot. I know how Tri-X responds to each of my filter colors. I've never been convinced that a digital sensor would respond the same way.

As an example, here is a shot from Leica's web page of the M9 Monochrom. Here they used an orange filter to add dramatic effect to the blue, cloud filled sky:



And here is an example from one of my Tri-X shots of a similar situation where I used a similar filter to get a dramatic sky effect:



While the orange filter in the M9 Monochrom shot darkened the blue sky, it also darkened and muddied up the white clouds. With Tri-X film, the filter darkened the blue sky but left the white clouds a puffy bright white.

Best,
-Tim

These are fine examples about the basic differences between film and digital sensor to respond to colors through various sensitivity levels I tried to explain in:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...=119168&page=4

Here the white clouds with shades of light gray on a blue sky background have been demonstrated; you noted the "muddy" tones of clouds on the digital sample as being the first discrepancy in rendering. If you try the same for yellow fields (harvest scenery) and the ones toward red the differences in rendering would again be obvious. With red tones like brick walls there is more tendency with digital to "darken" as the red-band sensitivity of sensors shows a "falling" character compared to mid-band colors.

I will try to examine the pictures of the new M9M, to see if Leica was able to accomplish some substantial modification on the response curves in that thread. This is the heart of the issue with the digital B&W and I am sure in the meantime the owners of the M9 or M9P's will check their own results against them. What they would state would be more insightful.

[Sylvester]

In Canada the price of the M9-M will be 1000$ more than the M9, 300$ more than the M9-P... I don't understand. Why didn't Leica made a digital Leica at the price range of a Leica CL that could only shoot black and white? That would have been something nice for students like me! Now they made a camera for weird fetishists...

[Richard G]

It's a win for M9 owners. M10 at Photokina now? I really don't care. MONOCHROM? Great for those that want it. Priced more or a little less than M9 really makes no difference.

[jbot]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Well, the test images look very crisp, the tonality is very nice, but I still want to see some dynamic range figures. It better be an improvement over the performance of the M9, which is a little weak at 7-9 stops. I'm hoping for 12-14 stops.

But in any case at $7950 it's mute point. I would need two bodies and I'm no banker.

Guess I'll just keep feeding my six analog M bodies more Tri-X...

You've got 6!? Mail me one please. Thanks..

Seriously though they've priced this one a bit high even for them.

[ramosa]

I still can't believe that the APO Cron 50 will Cost $7195! That's more than three times the cost of the previous Cron 50 ,,,

[victoriapio]

Originally Posted by Sylvester

In Canada the price of the M9-M will be 1000$ more than the M9, 300$ more than the M9-P... I don't understand. Why didn't Leica made a digital Leica at the price range of a Leica CL that could only shoot black and white? That would have been something nice for students like me! Now they made a camera for weird fetishists...

because there is probably no way to build it at that cost.

[Sylvester]

Originally Posted by victoriapio

because there is probably no way to build it at that cost.

Nikon and Canon can make full frames for a way lower price... Why build a Black and White only digital if it is going to cost more to make it than a colour one? These are not jewellery, these are tools. These should be made to be brought to Syria and Afghanistan with those who could profit from a tank camera built to highest standards and whatsoever. I love rangefinders. All I can afford is a Leica M2 or a CLE... or Voigtlander. Obviously these are not digital.
I won't be able to use them in my photography classes, which are a full time 3 years program by the way...

[mervynyan]

Originally Posted by ramosa

I still can't believe that the APO Cron 50 will Cost $7195! That's more than three times the cost of the previous Cron 50 ,,,

my thought exactly, that make 50/.95 a child play, twice expensive that 75 apo.

[victoriapio]

BOBYIL wrote:Here the white clouds with shades of light gray on a blue sky background have been demonstrated; you noted the "muddy" tones of clouds on the digital sample as being the first discrepancy in rendering. If you try the same for yellow fields (harvest scenery) and the ones toward red the differences in rendering would again be obvious. With red tones like brick walls there is more tendency with digital to "darken" as the red-band sensitivity of sensors shows a "falling" character compared to mid-band colors.

I will try to examine the pictures of the new M9M, to see if Leica was able to accomplish some substantial modification on the response curves in that thread. This is the heart of the issue with the digital B&W and I am sure in the meantime the owners of the M9 or M9P's will check their own results against them. What they would state would be more insightful."

Exactly and this may hold the key to Harry's 12-14 stops of exposure latitude
OC

[Ryan1938]

I can't help but somehow feel like Leica thinks I'm nuts or something... Seriously. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm not longer in Leica's target market.

[BobYIL]

Originally Posted by Sylvester

In Canada the price of the M9-M will be 1000$ more than the M9, 300$ more than the M9-P... I don't understand. Why didn't Leica made a digital Leica at the price range of a Leica CL that could only shoot black and white? That would have been something nice for students like me! Now they made a camera for weird fetishists...

Leica expects the young like you to work hard, have a profession, earn money, get a permit-of-purchase from your wife or gf, then until you accomplish these prepare yourself to pay a car's price for a body and again a car's price for two of your favorite lenses to own a small kit digital Leica of the year. Leica always wants the young to accomplish even more than what their parents wish them to do.

[victoriapio]

Originally Posted by Sylvester

Nikon and Canon can make full frames for a way lower price... Why build a Black and White only digital if it is going to cost more to make it than a colour one? These are not jewellery, these are tools. These should be made to be brought to Syria and Afghanistan with those who could profit from a tank camera built to highest standards and whatsoever. I love rangefinders. All I can afford is a Leica M2 or a CLE... or Voigtlander. Obviously these are not digital.
I won't be able to use them in my photography classes, which are a full time 3 years program by the way...

I agree that the costs are scary but NIKON and CANON do not build full frame rangefinders! There is a reason for this - rangefnder and hand building every lens, piece of glass, etc. The cheapest digital rangefinder ever made was the Epson RD1 and it was at close to $3k when it as discontinued. I am sure you know that Epson no longer makes that camera and probably the true cost of building it and supporting it were too much for them.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by jbot

You've got 6!? Mail me one please. Thanks..

Backup bodies and recently one of them died for good...

I've been shooting for a long time and picked up three of them about 10 years ago, when everyone thought that film was going to disappear overnight and were dumping their gear at insane prices.

[Sylvester]

Originally Posted by BobYIL

Leica expects the young like you to work hard, have a profession, earn money, get a permit-of-purchase from your wife or gf, then until you accomplish these prepare yourself to pay a car's price for a body and again a car's price for two of your favorite lenses to own a small kit digital Leica of the year. Leica always wants the young to accomplish even more than what their parents wish them to do.

At this price I don't even call it accomplishment, I call it suicide...

[Sylvester]

Originally Posted by victoriapio

I agree that the costs are scary but NIKON and CANON do not build full frame rangefinders! There is a reason for this - rangefnder and hand building every lens, piece of glass, etc. The cheapest digital rangefinder ever made was the Epson RD1 and it was at close to $3k when it as discontinued. I am sure you know that Epson no longer makes that camera and probably the true cost of building it and supporting it were too much for them.

Then I hope Voigtlander will exploit this market or something... Just stick a nice sensor in a R2M and I'll be happy...

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by BobYIL

Leica expects the young like you to work hard, have a profession, earn money, get a permit-of-purchase from your wife or gf, then until you accomplish these prepare yourself to pay a car's price for a body and again a car's price for two of your favorite lenses to own a small kit digital Leica of the year. Leica always wants the young to accomplish even more than what their parents wish them to do.

I bought my first Leica and lens almost 15 years ago. These items were purchased new from a dealer and while they were not cheap, they did not amount to the cost of a Honda Civic...