Thorsten Overgaard on the M10

[semordnilap]

Originally Posted by raytoei@gmail.com

The other thing is T.O. is involved in Leica early access program I think, so what is he telling us ? A new M that isn't a M10 but a derivative like the CL ?

raytoei

Yes, this seems like it could be a very interesting development!

[hausen]

Not sure about others but I bought my M9 because I love using Leica rangefinder cameras and I wanted a digital camera option. If it has become fashionable while I own it I am fine with that. If Leica want to position themselves with Cartier, Rolex or whatever to distance themselves from the 2 big Japanese DSLR brands and ensure their survival again I am happy with that. Not sure my photographic efforts qualify as 'serious photography' but i spend a large chunk of my day thinking about it so is serious to me. Love my M9 and really enjoy how Thorsten writes about it and uses it. To call people insecure morons because they can afford to pay for what they like might be taking it a little far.

[Harry Lime]

If Leica could make a b/w M body that outperformed a film Leica shooting something like Tri-X in terms of dynamic range and tonality I would probably give in and finally go digital. We're talking 14 stops of range and 14-16bit color. I really don't care about high iso noise since it's black and white I would add grain anyway. If It could shoot a clean 3200asa I would be besides myself.

I am struggling to find the time to sort through dozens of rolls that are consumed on a project. I shot 22 rolls last night for a project and I am not looking forward to spending the next few days in front of the scanner.

Also recently I've had to shoot in locations with almost no light and was having fond memories of my now sold D700 that could practically see in the dark...

[AusDLK]

a mono M9 for more then the standard version, no thank you

[JayM]

It would be nice if they would concentrate on camera QC and ergonomics rather than novelty and hiding consumer electronics behind the tradition that the Leica of yesteryear's lenses AND cameras established. It seems like they've done a good job improving their lenses over the years, but when it comes to cameras they've been pot boiling since the mid 70s.

[dave lackey]

Originally Posted by JayM

It would be nice if they would concentrate on camera QC and ergonomics rather than novelty and hiding consumer electronics behind the tradition that the Leica of yesteryear's lenses AND cameras established. It seems like they've done a good job improving their lenses over the years, but when it comes to cameras they've been pot boiling since the mid 70s.

Again, Leica has been making record profits, they do know what they are doing. If Leica changed their strategy as you suggest, IMO, it would be the end of Leica.

Why should it bother you anyway? If you don't like their products, buy something else. That is what I do, but I happen to like their products and buy the used ones down the road when they are affordable to me. YMMV but one has to understand that Leica is doing just fine and they know their business better than anyone on this forum or anywhere else.

[JayM]

Originally Posted by dave lackey

Again, Leica has been making record profits, they do know what they are doing. If Leica changed their strategy as you suggest, IMO, it would be the end of Leica.

Why should it bother you anyway? If you don't like their products, buy something else. That is what I do, but I happen to like their products and buy the used ones down the road when they are affordable to me. YMMV but one has to understand that Leica is doing just fine and they know their business better than anyone on this forum or anywhere else.

I agree with everything you're saying. I suppose I am just wishful for something that existed in another time. Leica seems like the only company close enough to the old ways to have the potential to bring back what seems missing in modern equipment. Maybe it is just nostalgia that people feel, but I think it is more than that. That might be why others get so easily riled up about it too.

[dave lackey]

Originally Posted by JayM

I agree with everything you're saying. I suppose I am just wishful for something that existed in another time. Leica seems like the only company close enough to the old ways to have the potential to bring back what seems missing in modern equipment. Maybe it is just nostalgia that people feel, but I think it is more than that. That might be why others get so easily riled up about it too.

Yes, I understand...

Seems the older I get the less I really think I do understand about anything, though, so it's good to have these dialogues. We all are one passionate bunch when it comes to photography!

[Araakii]

If Leica is not commited to make the best tool, or at least a good tool, they can just shut their R&D department down and keep pumping limited editions. At the end of the day, the quality of the product has to somewhat match the price that's being charged. As I said, the buyers know exactly what they are buying into. The people who can afford it are not some uneducated average person on the street.

Saying that the prices will remain high just means that the quality of the products will remain high. Lower prices mean lower quality glass and lower production cost.

[maddoc]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

Honestly, I have never met someone who owns a Leica just to show it off (without making any photos). I think this is an internet (and RFF) myth. People who are trying to flaunt their money know that cameras are not the way to do it ...

Well ... from my experience of living in Japan I would tend to argue against that.

[ChrisPlatt]

Thor's nuts. The M10 will be a film camera.

Chris

[AusDLK]

hopefully the M10 will be a mirrorless, shutterless camera in an M7/MP sized/shaped configuration ala the Fuji XP1. it can be made thinner (therefore back to the M7/MP form factor) and they can make the otherwise quiet "shutter" release sound just like the old cloth shutter cameras (no more M8/M9 grinding).

if this is the M10, then wow. otherwise, it VERY hard for me to see why a would replace my M9

[Frontman]

Originally Posted by Araakii

If Leica is not commited to make the best tool, or at least a good tool, they can just shut their R&D department down and keep pumping limited editions. At the end of the day, the quality of the product has to somewhat match the price that's being charged. As I said, the buyers know exactly what they are buying into. The people who can afford it are not some uneducated average person on the street.

Saying that the prices will remain high just means that the quality of the products will remain high. Lower prices mean lower quality glass and lower production cost.

What "R&D" department? If R&D means choosing body colors and limited-edition themes, then Leica's R&D department have been working overtime. If we are talking about technical innovation, Leica have not been up to much. The M9 had no "groundbreaking" features to mention, other than its record price tag. I love Leica cameras, but they are becoming less and less relevant to real-world photographers, mainly do to ever-increasing prices, or "exclusivity", as Leica might term it.

[MCTuomey]

Originally Posted by semilog

Are you making the best tool possible, or are you making jewelry?

Leica's major decision-maker has now explicitly said that the latter goals are explicit drivers at Leica.

It's not either/or. It's both. And that's the brilliance of their marketing.

[benlees]

Originally Posted by semilog

And that, right there, is the antithesis of Art. From Hell's heart I stab at thee, Leica.

This might be the best thing I've read on RFF!

[f16sunshine]

I could not finish reading the article.
It felt like I was read a section from "The Leica faithful fluff girls handbook".
Getting the faithful good and woody for the May 10 event.
It's just a damn camera company !

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by Frontman

What "R&D" department? If R&D means choosing body colors and limited-edition themes, then Leica's R&D department have been working overtime. If we are talking about technical innovation, Leica have not been up to much. The M9 had no "groundbreaking" features to mention, other than its record price tag. I love Leica cameras, but they are becoming less and less relevant to real-world photographers, mainly do to ever-increasing prices, or "exclusivity", as Leica might term it.

This is funny because the M9 is still the smallest full-frame camera in the market. Maybe it's not "groundbreaking" but there's nothing better in this regard. And if I understand correctly, some of the profit from M9 actually is used to subsidize the development cost for the lenses. Someone can correct me if that's not true.

As for being irrelevant to "real-world photographers". Why does that matter? Why should I care what "real-world photographers" use?

[semilog]

Originally Posted by MCTuomey

It's not either/or. It's both. And that's the brilliance of their marketing.

The assertion, straight from the top, is that Leica won't make superb products at reasonable cost even in cases where it's technically feasible to do so.

[maddoc]

Originally Posted by Frontman

What "R&D" department? If R&D means choosing body colors and limited-edition themes, then Leica's R&D department have been working overtime. If we are talking about technical innovation, Leica have not been up to much. The M9 had no "groundbreaking" features to mention, other than its record price tag. I love Leica cameras, but they are becoming less and less relevant to real-world photographers, mainly do to ever-increasing prices, or "exclusivity", as Leica might term it.

"Leica Camera AG" is not only producing M-mount cameras / lenses ... There is some other stuff, Leica S2 and lenses for example, which are quite innovative. Also, the M9 is the only FF-sensor equipped camera that can be used with true wide-angle lenses (except for the Hasselblad SWC with digital back), quite some novelty.

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by semilog

Wrong.

The assertion, straight from the top, is that Leica won't make superb products at reasonable cost even in cases where it's technically feasible to do so.

It's a free market economy. If someone else can make a superb product at reasonable cost where it's technically feasible, it would be done. The fact that there's no directly comparable product in the market implies that it's not something that can easily be done at reasonable cost. If Fuji could make an identical M9 for $1500, they wouldn't have made the X-pro.

[semilog]

Originally Posted by Araakii

If Fuji could make an identical M9 for $1500, they wouldn't have made the X-pro.

That's not right. It's not even wrong.

(Apologies to W. Pauli.)

[semilog]

Originally Posted by Araakii

It's a free market economy. If someone else can make a superb product at reasonable cost where it's technically feasible, it would be done.

18/4 Biogon.
21/2.8 Biogon.
25/2.8 Biogon
50 Planar.

For a start.

[victoriapio]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

If Leica could make a b/w M body that outperformed a film Leica shooting something like Tri-X in terms of dynamic range and tonality I would probably give in and finally go digital. We're talking 14 stops of range and 14-16bit color. I really don't care about high iso noise since it's black and white I would add grain anyway. If It could shoot a clean 3200asa I would be besides myself.

I am struggling to find the time to sort through dozens of rolls that are consumed on a project. I shot 22 rolls last night for a project and I am not looking forward to spending the next few days in front of the scanner.

Also recently I've had to shoot in locations with almost no light and was having fond memories of my now sold D700 that could practically see in the dark...

Harry, i hope for your sake you are right, but I have my doubts about this. I just can't imagine a business model that would make this work financially for Leica. That being said, it is Leica making the decision on the supposed M10 and while in the past business often seems to take a back seat to Leica's decisions, I don't think that will be the case this time..

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by semilog

18/4 Biogon.
21/2.8 Biogon.
25/2.8 Biogon
50 Planar.

For a start.

Germany has one of the highest wages in the world. Sure, Leica can move the production to China or Vietnam and cut the prices by 50%, but why should they do that? I would not want Leica to become another piece of crap like Wal-mart.

As to whether the Zeiss lenses you listed are really the same "quality", I've only used the 25mm 2.8 myself and didn't like it. But assuming that they are absolutely as good as the Leica equivalent, why would the Leica pricing strategy bother you at all? You would just be a happy Zeiss shooter. The fact that people are mad at Leica for the high prices indicate that they themselves would want to be Leica owners and they believe that Leica products are superior.

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by semilog

18/4 Biogon.
21/2.8 Biogon.
25/2.8 Biogon
50 Planar.

For a start.

And the two ZM lenses that are made in Germany, 85mm sonnar and 15mm distagon, are priced way above $3K at the same price range as the Leica equivalents. I haven't heard anyone accusing Zeiss of making an outrageous profit there.