Thorsten Overgaard on the M10

[DominikDUK]

A purely B/W Leica why not, most Leica users shoot B/W Film if the IQ is good I believe there is a market. Phase One has a purely B/W Digi Back the Achromatic+ so there has got to be at least a niche market.

Dominik

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by semilog

Leica at one time made the best products and priced them accordingly. The company's current leader now says out front that high selling price is a goal for its own sake.

Good business, maybe —

Maybe that's just another way of saying that they will continue to make the high end products (and price them accordingly). They are still making the "best" products for a small target customer base. These people are not that dumb if they can afford this kind of things. They know exactly what they are getting and they know it's worth every buck.

[mfogiel]

If Mr Overgaard wanted to do Leica a service, he should have used a less flary lens than the Summicron 50 ( a Planar, or a Summilux ASPH perhaps?...), shot it all on film, and applied some noise reduction technique, in order to make it look more plastic, and digital like, but with decent tonality - at least one could have been induced to think, that a B&W digital is aceptable after all...

[dave lackey]

Originally Posted by Ryan1938

Totally agree. I'm not being a Leica basher at all. Promise. My main camera is an M6 and Ive owned an M8. I love the idea of Leica... Honest.

Sometimes, however, I wish they would take themselves a bit more seriously as a producer of tools is all. Lose the Panasonic cameras, lose the special editions, etc... And instead, focus on making the best rangefinders in the world. I know they got bit once before doing that (the m5), but I'd love to see them try again.

Just my opinion. I don't think you are an idiot if you pay 9k for a BW Camera. Hell, if I had the dough I prolly would too! I'd certainly own an M9 anyhow...

Leica has shown record profits in the last few years because they know what they are doing. IMO, anyone who wants Leica to change their direction is both ignorant of Leica's own research, marketing and business strategies in a real world and also not able to grasp the complex world in which Leica must operate to not only survive but to keep this wonderful business prospering in an ever-changing world.

I know that I would never try to second guess Leica about Leica. YMMV.

In regard to the price, whatever.... not an issue for me.

[Florian1234]

No comment on this from me.

[Ryan1938]

Originally Posted by dave lackey

Leica has shown record profits in the last few years because they know what they are doing. IMO, anyone who wants Leica to change their direction is both ignorant of Leica's own research, marketing and business strategies in a real world and also not able to grasp the complex world in which Leica must operate to not only survive but to keep this wonderful business prospering in an ever-changing world.

I know that I would never try to second guess Leica about Leica. YMMV.

In regard to the price, whatever.... not an issue for me.

I know... Its prolly the silly value proposition of the red dot Panasonic that even allows them to go to market with the M8, M9, and M10. That, however, doesn't mean I have to like the fact that they are openly becoming more and more fashion focused.

The whole thing kind of reminds me of Breitling watches in a way.

We all know it will never happen, but you do have to wonder what would happen if Leica provided an m-solution of somekind for under $3500. A tool built to be used by professionals and priced dependent on value/cost.

[dct]

Originally Posted by Jobin

He is like a knowledgeable and skilled Ken Rockwell.

This is a good one!

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by semilog

Leica at one time made the best products and priced them accordingly. The company's current leader now says out front that high selling price is a goal for its own sake.

Good business, maybe —

Well said. Leica is mostly irrelevant for serious photography. Its become a fashion statement, and thats how Leica wants it, because as "fashion" they can charge exorbitant prices.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by Ryan1938

The idea of the BW camera, especially in this price range, kind of baffles me. Sometimes Leica frustrates me so much with their countless special editions, strange market intros, etc...

I wish their business directives were as simple as the M3. Sometimes, I think they should have stopped right there.

Good thing you don't run things over at Leica... (jokes)

[Gabriel M.A.]

So is it now the time to complain about how bad the M10 is and begin to speculate on how the M11 will be too expensive? Well, I think the complaining about how bad the M10 already is has been around for a few years, but I guess now it'll be official? Oh and the Nikon D3 is better.

[raytoei@gmail.com]

i like the bit where it is suggested that a B&W Digital M to convert all the film users over to the new medium. This is a good business case for Leica, no ?

The other thing is T.O. is involved in Leica early access program I think, so what is he telling us ? A new M that isn't a M10 but a derivative like the CL ?

raytoei

[jsrockit]

Oh, no Gabriel... the D800e will be the thorn in the M10's side.

[Ryan1938]

Originally Posted by raytoei@gmail.com

i like the bit where it is suggested that a B&W Digital M to convert all the film users over to the new medium. This is a good business case for Leica, no ?

The other thing is T.O. is involved in Leica early access program I think, so what is he telling us ? A new M that isn't a M10 but a derivative like the CL ?

raytoei

Like I said, if I could afford it I would own an m9... I'm sure I'd own an m10 as well if it comes out like many predict. A BW only camera that runs more than an M9? Wow. Really? I can't wait to see what it's all about. Maybe it's magical.

All that said, do any of you guys go from your film m to your digital m and notice the tangible differences? Is it just me or does even my M6 feel more "polished" than an M9 operationally? The M3 almost certainly does.

That's the one thing nobody can ever take from Leica - the best film cameras and the best glass in the world.

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by Ryan1938

Like I said, if I could afford it I would own an m9... I'm sure I'd own an m10 as well if it comes out like many predict. A BW only camera that runs more than an M9? Wow. Really? I can't wait to see what it's all about. Maybe it's magical.

All that said, do any of you guys go from your film m to your digital m and notice the tangible differences? Is it just me or does even my M6 feel more "polished" than an M9 operationally? The M3 almost certainly does.

That's the one thing nobody can ever take from Leica - the best film cameras and the best glass in the world.

I went back to the M6 after using the M9 but I have no problem with anyone buying a new Leica. I don't understand why people have to justify their inability to own a new Leica by calling someone else the social climbers, the profane moneygrubbers or the wannabe nouveau riche. It's no problem if you don't have the money.

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Well said. Leica is mostly irrelevant for serious photography. Its become a fashion statement, and thats how Leica wants it, because as "fashion" they can charge exorbitant prices.

I wonder what's serious photography to you?

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

What is the difference between serious photography and any other kind of photography?

I've often noticed how, to people without our obsession, a not very sharp picture of a loved one is far more important than anything by Adams, Karsh or Cartier-Bresson

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Well said. Leica is mostly irrelevant for serious photography. Its become a fashion statement, and thats how Leica wants it, because as "fashion" they can charge exorbitant prices.

Honestly, I have never met someone who owns a Leica just to show it off (without making any photos). I think this is an internet (and RFF) myth. People who are trying to flaunt their money know that cameras are not the way to do it ... there are way better objects in the world that people will actually recognize. Leica is not as well known as you think...most non-photographers do not know the brand exists.

[Ryan1938]

Well, I'm certainly not a serious photographer. In fact, I suck on most levels... But I have so much fun with my M6. It's just a glorious experience. That experience lacked a bit with the M8 that i owned and wasn't ideal with the M9 that I borrowed.

I have a fuji x-pro 1 now and have just as much fun with it as I had with the m9 for far less money... Neither can touch my M6. And I'm not all together sure why. I'm not a film snob at all... The m6 just feels so much more in hand.

In a dream world, they'd come up with some kind of digital back for the M6, sell it for like 6k, and then I'd be in heaven.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by Ryan1938

I'm not a film snob at all... The m6 just feels so much more in hand.

I'm all digital these days, own a M9 and the Fujis, and can seriously say that I feel the same way as you. There is just something special about the film Ms. That said, I think there is something special about the M9 too...just not as much so. You have to hand it to Leica for getting close to the film m with the M9. I mean they had to stick a computer in nearly the same form factor.

[furcafe]

AF, yes, & the accessory shoe, yes, but not the hot shoe (I think that was Bell & Howell for their Foton in 1948).

Originally Posted by kmallick

+1
Thorsten's is a great read as usual. Very well written.

"It was Leica that invented the auto focus since 1960 (and also some unnamed Leica executive who said nobody would want it why they sold the rights), and it was Leica that invented the hot shoe for flash. And the list goes on..."

I didn't know that the auto focus and hot shoe were Leica's contribution to the photography world.

[icebear]

quote from Overgaard :
What about the M10 then ..?
"The Leica M9 is quite perfect, so why bother?" you might say. At least that is what I am thinking. I am not in need of a Leica M10 anytime soon.


I took the plunge and bought a used M9 from one of our sponsors and since my old desktop is running on XP I can't use the LR4 download right now.

Just downloading the JPG fine files and saving the DNG's for later, I am already truly amazed by the almost 3D like effect of these files. My wife looking over my shoulder "...if the pictures were moving, you'd believe to be in there"

For me this is way ahead of any amateur film result being dependent on a service lab for development and printing. Any scientific comparison might squeeze a little more resolution out of a low ISO film but in MY real world ... this little M9 just rocks. I'll post some of my first pics later.

I totally agree with Mr. O.
For me this M9 is more than sufficient. I'll still have a lot to learn to push it to its limits. It's a tool for taking pictures and it's a hell lot o' fun to use. I don't care about the investment value if a M10 is released anytime soon. Spending so much money on a camera is totally stupid - but heck, I'm enjoying it .

[dave lackey]

Originally Posted by icebear

quote from Overgaard :
What about the M10 then ..?
"The Leica M9 is quite perfect, so why bother?" you might say. At least that is what I am thinking. I am not in need of a Leica M10 anytime soon.


I took the plunge and bought a used M9 from one of our sponsors and since my old desktop is running on XP I can't use the LR4 download right now.

Just downloading the JPG fine files and saving the DNG's for later, I am already truly amazed by the almost 3D like effect of these files. My wife looking over my shoulder "...if the pictures were moving, you'd believe to be in there"

For me this is way ahead of any amateur film result being dependent on a service lab for development and printing. Any scientific comparison might squeeze a little more resolution out of a low ISO film but in MY real world ... this little M9 just rocks. I'll post some of my first pics later.

I totally agree with Mr. O.
For me this M9 is more than sufficient. I'll still have a lot to learn to push it to its limits. It's a tool for taking pictures and it's a hell lot o' fun to use. I don't care about the investment value if a M10 is released anytime soon. Spending so much money on a camera is totally stupid - but heck, I'm enjoying it .

Cool.

IMO, it would take a lifetime to approach truly mastering most any camera, let alone the excellent M9. There aren't many people in the contemporary world that would stick with a single camera/system for, say, 40 years like many older photographers who are still using their early M film bodies. Always looking for the next greatest thing with yet more bells and whistles.

Me? I still love my M3 and, please, all of you with M9s, please take care of them because the one you discard today could be mine in a few years.

[maggieo]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

I'm all digital these days, own a M9 and the Fujis, and can seriously say that I feel the same way as you. There is just something special about the film Ms. That said, I think there is something special about the M9 too...just not as much so. You have to hand it to Leica for getting close to the film m with the M9. I mean they had to stick a computer in nearly the same form factor.

I have to say that my X100 feels more like my M2 than my M8 does. Though, with my sensor dying, both the M2 and the M8 are pretty much all-ISO 320-all-the-time now.

[jsrockit]

Originally Posted by dave lackey

There aren't many people in the contemporary world that would stick with a single camera/system for, say, 40 years like many older photographers who are still using their early M film bodies. Always looking for the next greatest thing with yet more bells and whistles.

While what you say is true Dave, perhaps it is because much of digital image technology is still evolving... and perhaps is still in its infancy. It remains to be seen which cameras become classics in which people keep them as their main camera for more than 5 years or so.

Always looking for the next greatest thing with yet more bells and whistles.

Many of us here are searching for the perfect digital camera WITHOUT any bells or whistles. :-)

[dave lackey]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

While what you say is true Dave, perhaps it is because much of digital image technology is still evolving... and perhaps is still in its infancy. It remains to be seen which cameras become classics in which people keep them as their main camera for more than 5 years or so.

Yes, but it seems "classic" is a term that is changing with every generation, and I cannot see 5 years as being but a mere blink of an eye.



Many of us here are searching for the perfect digital camera WITHOUT any bells or whistles. :-)

Sounds like me! Give me the BW M9/M10 with NO bells and whistles, no screen. Just let me turn it on, set the aperture, speed, ISO, focus and shoot!

Why in the world is it that with all the computer power in the world today that we have to screw around with ISO, WB and screens? Eliminate that and I would be happy. And, btw, give me a heavy metal digital barnack with a similar body as the IIIf/g with no bells and whistles.