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street photography + harassment...
Old 03-28-2012   #1
MVCG
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street photography + harassment...

So I was out on Sunday with my M6 and 24 Elmarit and noticed a character dressed in some interesting clothes so decided to take a hip shot as he was crossing the street. I mostly shoot "hyperfocal" so didnt need to adjust a thing with this lens.

We crossed paths shortly after and were on opposite sides of the street. We were both coincidentally waiting (me for my fiance and him for the bus) although he kept on looking at me with an intense stare. Shortly after he decided to cross the street over to me whilst I was on the phone and stood in front of me somewhat aggressively. I was concerned so cut short my call. He asked me to stop taking pictures of him and to delete the shots I had taken (1). I admitted to him that I had indeed taken a picture of him as I was crossing the street as I thought his outfit was interesting but I couldn't delete the picture as it was not a digital camera. He became rather aggressive (although "sort of" polite) saying that this was rude and that I should have asked him, to which I said, "ideally, you are right, however, had I of asked you, would you have said yes?", I told him I was a street photographer who liked to capture people in their natural environment and I would be happy to send him a print of his picture. He didn't respond but was very dismissive at this point and started crossing the street although kept looking at me for quite a while until his bus came...

My question is to all you savvy street shooters, what should our stance be???? On the one hand, I know I am legally allowed to take pictures of anything I like on the street but how do you handle these situations??? This really puts me off street shooting and has tainted my confidence...
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Old 03-28-2012   #2
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You handled it well. But this scenario is bound to happen from time to time and you just have to handle each confrontation differently but politely.
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Old 03-28-2012   #3
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Don't worry about what people think, just take the photo. You dealt with it as you should have, the guy was just a hot head.

Situations like this will always suck but they're a part of shooting street. I feel the same after any confrontation. I drink when I shoot though, so I usually forget about it soon enough.
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Old 03-28-2012   #4
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If a brief cordial reply from me does not diffuse the situation, I simply tell them nicely to "have a nice day" and walk away. No one has ever pursued me. If someone ever does, I will immediately call the police and ask for help.
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Old 03-28-2012   #5
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That's a toughie. If people say they don't want their photo taken, I don't shoot. But if they protest after and not before? I dunno--never been in that situation. I guess it's up to you.

But from a legal standpoint, I think he's out of luck. You can (as of now, at least) photograph someone in a public place.

Damn, it's sad that photogs are so often perceived these days as The Enemy.
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Old 03-28-2012   #6
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I say you handled it very well. I've been in a similar situation once and the person I took a photo of insisted I delete the photo. I told him I can't since I am shooting film. I just apologized and he calmed down at that point. Had he harassed me, I would have called the cops for assistance. Like you my confidence kind of faded with street shooting but I keep telling myself to just grow bigger balls
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Old 03-28-2012   #7
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Based on recent patterns in recent threads, if you call for police assistance, aren't you just asking to get arrested?

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Old 03-28-2012   #8
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I explain and listen once. After that it's a 'can't help ya' stance from me...
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Old 03-28-2012   #9
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...be short and sweet. No dialogue is needed -that's when things escalate. Acting a little crazy always helps too -throw in some twitches, start talking to yourself while pacing and staring at the ground. Even a "j'excuse monsieur, je ne parle pas englias" can kill a potentially uncomfortable situation. These will also throw in some style into your street shooting. "Hey, it's that crazy French street photographer again that talks to himself!"..."yeah, we should check out his photos, I bet they're insane!".
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Old 03-28-2012   #10
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I am teaching my oldest child a bit about photography, including how you can find interesting people and things to shoot almost everywhere.

Sometimes when angrily asked what I plan to do with a photo I've just taken, I say something like, "Well, if the photo comes out at all, the first thing will be that my 10 year old, who's learning photography with me, is going to look at it and tell me how I could have improved my technique."

It's as true as it is effective.

I think it makes sense to think ahead of time of several different (and truthful) responses, because it is hard
to come up with them sometimes in the stress of the moment.

Offering to send a photo sounds like a good idea.
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Old 03-28-2012   #11
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If you got off a "hip shot" I assume that it was not obvious that you took a photo? In that case, why not tell him you did NOT take a picture, you were just "adjusting your camera"?

Randy

P.S. I have been waiting to try out this line: "I only take photos of INTERESTING people..." ;-)
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Old 03-28-2012   #12
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Not to be mean but whenever I hear stories about confrontations like this, I think the photographer is the one responsible for the situation. I don't think one can assume that the subject would definitely say no when you ask politely. It's not an excuse for taking a shot of someone without permission. The most ideal situation is when you take a candid of someone and that person doesn't notice. But if he does and feels enraged by what you just did, then the fault is on you.
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Old 03-28-2012   #13
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I have been accosted a number of times. I do whatever it takes to diffuse the situation. I have on occasion followed Randy's approach, and lied about taking a picture. On another occasion, when pursued by a gentlemen who accused me of taking HIS picture, I answered (truthfully) that I was instead taking a picture of an interesting sign over a shop, and if he was in the picture it was pure coincidence (that seemed to mollify him). You may get some mileage by saying that you weren't taking HIS picture, you were shooting something else instead and if he happened to be in the picture you took well,,, too bad. If someone indicates that they don't want his or her picture taken, I generally won't press the shutter, but if it's an objection after the fact, well it's not illegal to take someone's photo in a public place, at least not in the U.S.
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Old 03-28-2012   #14
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If all candid portrait subjects were asked before the portrait were taken, it would sort of defeat the meaning of candid. The photographer did the best he could here. It's the nature of the game.
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Old 03-28-2012   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenJohn View Post
If all candid portrait subjects were asked before the portrait were taken, it would sort of defeat the meaning of candid. The photographer did the best he could here. It's the nature of the game.
If it was really a candid, the subject shouldn't have noticed that his/her photo has been taken. If he/she somehow knows, then that means you are flashing your camera in front of the person and it's not a candid anymore.
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Old 03-28-2012   #16
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Yep. you handled the situation very well. Very tough thing to do.

My only thing to say is; it looks extremely suspicious when shooting from the hip. It can make you look like you are a pervert as you are trying to hide that you are taking a photo.

I try to be upfront as possible, holding the camera to my eye to take the photo. I have only been hassled once from doing this.
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Old 03-28-2012   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubb Jubb View Post
I try to be upfront as possible, holding the camera to my eye to take the photo. I have only been hassled once from doing this.
That's exactly right. Trying to hide your camera would only make you more suspicious.
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Old 03-28-2012   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zauhar View Post
If you got off a "hip shot" I assume that it was not obvious that you took a photo? In that case, why not tell him you did NOT take a picture, you were just "adjusting your camera"?

Randy

P.S. I have been waiting to try out this line: "I only take photos of INTERESTING people..." ;-)
Agreed. Tell him you have no idea what he's talking about. If he persists, take out you phone and threaten to call the police. He'll leave, trust me.
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Old 03-28-2012   #19
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Based on recent patterns in recent threads, if you call for police assistance, aren't you just asking to get arrested?
Absolutely not. Now one must be cordial and non-argumentative with the police but in the US 99% of the policemen understand the rights to photograph. The remaining 1% will call a supervisor for clarification before arresting someone.

Also remember if one is walking away and is being pursued by a stranger, any questions about prior photographs become meaningless.
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Old 03-28-2012   #20
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Thanks guys, its happened a couple of times to me, either bad luck or bad form, whatever the case, it really is disappointing.
We live in a world where trust and civil decency are seemingly harder and harder to come by, especially in a bg city like London. I stand by my beliefs and will always respond courteously and honestly and hope one day, when this happens again, to be pleasantly surprised I will not however, give up my street shooting as a consequence.
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Old 03-28-2012   #21
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somewhat related question: would the the reaction have been different if a TLR been used openly instead of a small format camera ?
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Old 03-28-2012   #22
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Clearly, you are left with no other option.

You must immediately purchase a Fuji X-Pro-1 (with all the lenses).

...thus equipped, you may immediately dispatch any image that your subject finds offensive.
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Old 03-28-2012   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
somewhat related question: would the the reaction have been different if a TLR been used openly instead of a small format camera ?
No, it has nothing to do with the size of the camera. It's the photographer.
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Old 03-28-2012   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araakii View Post
If it was really a candid, the subject shouldn't have noticed that his/her photo has been taken. If he/she somehow knows, then that means you are flashing your camera in front of the person and it's not a candid anymore.
That is not always true. If you are close to the subject, they may become aware after they hear the shutter noise, so you can get a true candid. At other times, they may look your way as you are lowering the camera and guess you had already shot a photo.
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Old 03-28-2012   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
somewhat related question: would the the reaction have been different if a TLR been used openly instead of a small format camera ?
Anything that could be construed as "stealth photography" scares me. When I photograph someone, they know it for sure. I always feel more confident knowing no one will ever discover I was trying to photograph them without them knowing it.
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Old 03-28-2012   #26
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Was it a situation like this ?

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Old 03-28-2012   #27
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I don't think you could have handled that any better to be honest. I most certainly would not delete images. I have had a few scrapes over the last year and posted about my experiences here - http://aperturepriority.co.nz/2012/0...-mean-streets/

Keep shooting, don't be put off....

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well
Old 03-28-2012   #28
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well

I think the "hip shot" where your subject sees you shooting from the hip, probably trying to be sneaky (?) can cause unpredictable reactions from strangers.

Subjects may be:

a) drug dealers
b) wanted for felonies
c) paranoid
d) owe money/in big debt
e) owe alimony
f) a secret agent
g) undercover agent
h) in the witness protection plan
i) mobster
j) yakuza
k) mossad
l) MI-5

etc. Just because you got off this time, doesn't mean the next time you won't get your butt pounded into the ground, not that it would necessarily be a kind thing to have happen... just sayin'


Quote:
Originally Posted by MVCG View Post
So I was out on Sunday with my M6 and 24 Elmarit and noticed a character dressed in some interesting clothes so decided to take a hip shot as he was crossing the street. I mostly shoot "hyperfocal" so didnt need to adjust a thing with this lens.

We crossed paths shortly after and were on opposite sides of the street. We were both coincidentally waiting (me for my fiance and him for the bus) although he kept on looking at me with an intense stare. Shortly after he decided to cross the street over to me whilst I was on the phone and stood in front of me somewhat aggressively. I was concerned so cut short my call. He asked me to stop taking pictures of him and to delete the shots I had taken (1). I admitted to him that I had indeed taken a picture of him as I was crossing the street as I thought his outfit was interesting but I couldn't delete the picture as it was not a digital camera. He became rather aggressive (although "sort of" polite) saying that this was rude and that I should have asked him, to which I said, "ideally, you are right, however, had I of asked you, would you have said yes?", I told him I was a street photographer who liked to capture people in their natural environment and I would be happy to send him a print of his picture. He didn't respond but was very dismissive at this point and started crossing the street although kept looking at me for quite a while until his bus came...

My question is to all you savvy street shooters, what should our stance be???? On the one hand, I know I am legally allowed to take pictures of anything I like on the street but how do you handle these situations??? This really puts me off street shooting and has tainted my confidence...
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Old 03-28-2012   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ampguy View Post
I think the "hip shot" where your subject sees you shooting from the hip, probably trying to be sneaky (?) can cause unpredictable reactions from strangers.

Subjects may be:

a) drug dealers
b) wanted for felonies
c) paranoid
d) owe money/in big debt
e) owe alimony
f) a secret agent
g) undercover agent
h) in the witness protection plan
i) mobster
j) yakuza
k) mossad
l) MI-5

etc. Just because you got off this time, doesn't mean the next time you won't get your butt pounded into the ground, not that it would necessarily be a kind thing to have happen... just sayin'
..

You left out "m) Neighborhood Watch Volunteer"...though "c) paranoid" covers it, I suppose.
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Old 03-28-2012   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ampguy View Post
I think the "hip shot" where your subject sees you shooting from the hip, probably trying to be sneaky (?) can cause unpredictable reactions from strangers.

Subjects may be:

a) drug dealers
b) wanted for felonies
c) paranoid
d) owe money/in big debt
e) owe alimony
f) a secret agent
g) undercover agent
h) in the witness protection plan
i) mobster
j) yakuza
k) mossad
l) MI-5

etc. Just because you got off this time, doesn't mean the next time you won't get your butt pounded into the ground, not that it would necessarily be a kind thing to have happen... just sayin'
Now that would be interesting.....surely that just makes it more exciting!! Don't put him off...
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Old 03-28-2012   #31
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Quote:
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..

You left out "m) Neighborhood Watch Volunteer"...though "c) paranoid" covers it, I suppose.
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Old 03-28-2012   #32
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1. Smile.
2. Explain I'm just out enjoying taking some shots of the place (less so people).
3. Smile.
4. Walk away (smiling)

I try to avoid the awkward fleeting glances after a shot. I generally move on so I dont spent time with someone who knows I photographed them unless there is already an 'understanding.' I have never been pursued either.

I find using an extremely non-threatening body posture helps enormously, but the golden rule is to avoid eye contact if you see those searching eyes coming. If people cannot make eye contact they are forced to make a closer approach or a louder verbal challenge to get your attention (they don't know your name remember), which is a far greater escalation than a quick, quiet question once they get eye contact. I find it important to avoid the first question and, if you cannot, to disarm them with niceness then bolt. Its amazing how a few questions back and forth can head south quickly, which could have been avoided entirely if you'd left quickly, smiling.

These principles hold true almost anywhere. I'm busy shooting street photos in Kabul and quite a few times I have had to thrust out my hand smiling and shake the hand of a young man who is clearly a bit 'upset'. Its not unusual to see someone looking quite angry one minute and then having a lovely chat later on. Anger is normally the product of suspicion and that is the fear of some sort of nefarious activity. Make that fear go away and your problem is usually gone too.
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Old 03-28-2012   #33
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I was photographing a busy street market, about 40~50 people in frame, all going about their shopping. A joker, one of the vendors, about 60 feet away yelled out "don't take my picture". I grinned and said 'no no, don't flatter yourself, at this distance your face will be an insignificant speck on the negative.' He turned back to attending his stall.

Actually, the camera was a Kodak Tourist, 6X9 negative, 105mm lens. So it turned out that his face was in fact, recognizable.
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Old 03-29-2012   #34
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Quote:
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If a brief cordial reply from me does not diffuse the situation, I simply tell them nicely to "have a nice day" and walk away.
I agree with this most of the time...
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Old 03-29-2012   #35
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Sometimes a simple #@&% off works too...
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Old 03-29-2012   #36
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Quote:
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We live in a world where trust and civil decency are seemingly harder and harder to come by. . .
I completely agree. It used to be considered impolite to stare at people on the street because they were unusual; now people think it's just fine to shoot photos of them, too, and then they wonder why their subjects object. Decency is, indeed, dead.

It's sad to live in a world where people's treatment of others is defined as proper if merely "within the law", without considering others' feelings at all.
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Old 03-29-2012   #37
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In my book, anyone shooting from the hip is a potential freak, with all due respect to the OP.
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Old 03-29-2012   #38
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I was outside a bookstore that had a table offering rescue greyhounds. As I was walking in I snapped a shot of the dogs. 5 minutes later a lady walked up and asked if I shot of picture of her and her kid. I said no, just testing the camera. Then she explained the kid was autistic, and that it was against some "rule" for her to allow photographs. I told her not to worry, my wife works with autism, and such. After a few minutes it was clear she was just trying to do her job, as a caregiver, she was not the parent. Anyway, sometimes subterfuge and discussion isn't a bad thing. And another point, if you see a crazy looking guy, or a cop, or a hells angel, do you Really want to take that picture and risk trouble?
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Old 03-29-2012   #39
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It's sad to live in a world where people's treatment of others is defined as proper if merely "within the law", without considering others' feelings at all.
A few RFF members and I go out an photograph at times. There will be situations where we say "That was a great photograph" without taking it... and the concensus as to why we didn't take it is because we don't want to make the person feel like ****. Someone rummaging through garbage for food comes to mind as a typical scenario.
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Old 03-29-2012   #40
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And another point, if you see a crazy looking guy, or a cop, or a hells angel, do you Really want to take that picture and risk trouble?
Sometimes, yes.

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