How to Avoid Spotty Negatives?

[JHenry]

Last week I began developing my own black and white 35mm negatives (I've being doing 4x5 for a few months now). While my 4x5 negatives come out clean and ready to scan, all the 35mm I've done have come out with significant dried water spots on them. The developing part has gone flawlessly, but the spots make it almost not worthwhile to scan.

Has anybody else had this problem, and how have you solved it?

For a bit more background, here are the different steps I've taken to try to fix the problem.

- First batch: Finished developing and then after washing I rinsed with an Ilfotec wetting agent (the only one I can find here in New Zealand). I poured the wetting agent into the tank and then poured it out; the negatives had awful huge dried spots on them. For this first run, I added tap water to a tiny bit of the agent, which resulted in bubbles, so I now add the agent to the water. Hung and let dry over night.

- Second batch: After washing film, I added wetting agent to "ultra pure drinking water" (as close as I can find to distilled water in NZ), and poured the wetting agent into the tank and then poured out. Hung the negatives and squeegeed with my fingers. Spots were not as bad, but still not great (i.e. if I scanned them I'd spend hours trying to remove the spots).

- Third batch: Removed spool from tank and poured wetting agent over the film (used the ultra-pure water), and then hung and did not squeegee. Spots just as bad.

So, how do you wash your negatives so you can scan them easily? Again, the development is fine, and I'm not noticing scratches or dust on the negatives. It's just the spots.

Thanks for your help.

Jeff "Out damned Spot!" Henry

[timor]

Hi ! Is good to have distilled water, but I have same problem. I am adding to final wash about half amount of wetting agent and then about 30-50ml of rubbing alcohol (pure spirit will be better do), and I am getting almost no spots. I think "pure drinking water" is not that close to distilled and when comes to solved minerals even worst then tap water. And that those minerals create the spots. I do not squeegee the film just shake it strongly when still on the spool.

[JHenry]

Thanks. I hadn't thought about rubbing alcohol. I'll give that a try.

Agree that the ultra-pure water isn't distilled, but for the life of me I can't find any here. An entire isle at the supermarket for bottled water, and no distilled water!

[mllanos1111]

I haven't tried that Ilford solution but I use the Kodak Photo-flo.
I wash everything for 10 minutes under normal tap water then I rinse twice in the tank with distilled water. On the final one I let the film sit in the distilled water and I put a couple of drops of Photo-flo in the water. You cant add too much or it will get foamy and make things worse.
I dont think the water is your problem, I've used regular pure drinking water and reverse osmosis water out of the filter and it never spotted only when I added too much Photo-flo.

[Matus]

I think that distilled water is quite essential. I once mixed the bottles and washed my films with normal tap water (quite hard one, actually). Even though I added a wetting agent (I always us it at about 1:300) - the result was horrible. I rewashed them, but did not manage to get all those traces away anymore.

My advice would be - if you can not get proper distilled water than you may consider first boiling the water you want later use for washing for couple of minutes and then filtering is through chemical paper filters (not coffee filters ). This is a slow process but if you make a small stand you should be able to filter more than enough in one day.

Caveat - the above is good meant opinion, I have not filtered water myself.

Actually - did you search for distilled water on gas stations? This is usually water that is used in the cooling system (of course mixed with some anti corroding and anti freezing stuff). It would save you a lot of hassle and guarantee you good results.

greetings to NZ - I hope to visit that magnificent country some time again ...

[JHenry]

Thanks for the replies. I'll continue my search for distilled water.

I'm also going to try re-washing the six rolls I developed yesterday. Some decent shots on them, but I can't scan them in their current state.

Cheers,

Jeff

[sirius]

Hi,

I had no luck with squeegees. They always resulted in picking something up and dragging a scratch across my negatives.

I used drying agents but still usually have some spots. It's not a big deal to me since I just take a soft cotton cloth with a little bit of dampness and rub them off when I go to scan. They come off super easy.

Ian

[timor]

JHenry, it is impossible NZ has no distilled water. I am getting mine in a pharmacy. Clinics need it on daily bases. Check around for medical supply places.

[damien.murphy]

I agree with the distilled water, what I do is dev, stop, fix and wash as normal (normal water), then as I leave the film to hang to dry, I spray the film with distilled water mixed with a few drops of wetting agent from a spray bottle.

I find this has improved the amount of water marks I get, but they are still there when dry, just lighter. I put it down to hard water, and would like to use distilled water at all stages in the film developing process, but it is very hard to find and expensive.

I'm considering distilling my own water, but am just at the thought process stage now. Does anyone here distill their own water ?

[jmcd]

I use distilled water, with a few drops of photo-flo per liter. I keep the solution in a sealed bottle (liter sized water bottle) and this way it stays good for weeks and makes negatives that dry spot free for many, many rolls. If it is left to the open air it does not work effectively for nearly as long. If I start to see the occasional spot appear, I can add a drop or two more of photo-flo.

Every few weeks I make a new batch.

[petronius]

I stopped using a wetting agent some time ago. I simply rinse with normal water, then hang the film and soak off the water with a paper towel and low pressure.

[mfogiel]

There is one point to ascertain: are the spots from dust on negatives, or from holes in the emulsion? In the first case, they will appear as white spots on the final print, inthe second case, as black spots.
If this is a case of white spots thet you should try this:
- last rinse in DEMINERALIZED water ( you find this easily in supermarkets among the supplies for ironing, or for car accessories) with the addition of a few drops of photo flo or equivalent, AND with the addition of some (5-10% of total volume) denaturated acohol. Then, as you hung the films to dry, you pour the last rinse water over both sides of the negatives, and pull the negatives at the bottom away from vertical for a minute, so that the water flows down on the edges. Afterwards, make sure to dry in a dust free environment with no ventilation.
If they are dark spots, then you are probably using one of the Foma or Efke/Adox films, and in this case, you have to use an alkali fix rather than a normal acidic one.

[Alpacaman]

Where in NZ do you live? If in Canterbury you can do without the bottled water, the artesian stuff is more than good enough (at least for me it is).

[timor]

Damien.Murphy: Only in normal, chemical lab. But the set-up is simple, no need for some complicated stuff. What you need is a kettle connected to few feet of plastic tubing dipped in bucket of cold water with a plastic bottle on the opposite end for collection. Connection with bottle must be watertight and You have to find a way to keep it at the bottom of the bucket, or go with the tubing through the wall of the bucket (watertight). Simple and cheap, works with making illigal booze, should be good enough for distilled water.

[zerobuttons]

Originally Posted by JHenry

.....
Agree that the ultra-pure water isn't distilled, but for the life of me I can't find any here. An entire isle at the supermarket for bottled water, and no distilled water!

You ought to be able to find at least demineralized water at gas stations or at places where you can buy DIY materials (paint and such).
Distilled water is even cleaner than demineralized water, but that should make no difference in this case.

[damien.murphy]

Originally Posted by timor

Damien.Murphy: Only in normal, chemical lab. But the set-up is simple, no need for some complicated stuff. What you need is a kettle connected to few feet of plastic tubing dipped in bucket of cold water with a plastic bottle on the opposite end for collection. Connection with bottle must be watertight and You have to find a way to keep it at the bottom of the bucket, or go with the tubing through the wall of the bucket (watertight). Simple and cheap, works with making illigal booze, should be good enough for distilled water.

Yes, have been considering something similar as I do my rudimentary research into distilling my own water. My main aim is to be able to distill a good bit in a relatively short space of time. I develop films in batches five at a a time, and usually two batches in a day. For every five rolls I use approx. 6- 7 litres of water (1 for dev, reuse stop and fix mix, and then usually about 6 litres for washing), and would ideally like to use distilled water for all this.

I figure a cheap slowly boiling kettle, some form of tubing (any ideas?), something to cool the tubing and a bucket. Need to see if it's cost-efficient, but you never know if I get up and running, I may distill for paper

Must check out the local home-brewing shops for anything also

[timor]

I am afraid, that for 20 liters a day of distilled water You will need quite a big setup. The major cost is heat. I figure that gasoline burner will be the cheaper and clean enough, if you can do it outside. Speed of boiling, or rather evaporation depends on contact surface between heat and water and free surface of a water. The rest you will figure out. It is possible to evaporate 20-30 l of water in 5-6 hrs. without much of investment and catch it as (near) distilled water. But, aren't you going a bit overboard ? Washing could be done in tap water with no problem, just the finish in distilled.
For tubing you can use even a pice of a garden hose. Bigger - faster (larger cooling surface). Otherwise check places wit home renovation materials or medical stores (again).

[damien.murphy]

Originally Posted by timor

But, aren't you going a bit overboard ? Washing could be done in tap water with no problem, just the finish in distilled.

Thats what I currently do, and despite drowning the negs in distilled water mixed with wetting agent, I still get water marks. It's more of a problem now actually, as I've relocated my darkroom to an area where the water is much harder.

It is a lot of water to distill though, and perhaps other solutions have some virtue. I had never imagined using pure alcohol/ rubbling alcohol, and wonder what is it that makes it effective.

In any case, thanks for the reply. If I decide to distill myself, it would seem to be a lot cheaper than the water distiillers on the market, which here in Ireland are €200- €250

[Fawley]

Originally Posted by petronius

I stopped using a wetting agent some time ago. I simply rinse with normal water, then hang the film and soak off the water with a paper towel and low pressure.

I'm amazed that this wouldn't leave some type of mark on the film, at the very least tiny dust or lint particles that stick to the emulsion. Are you useing a hardening or non hardening fixer?

[3js]

Originally Posted by Fawley

I'm amazed that this wouldn't leave some type of mark on the film, at the very least tiny dust or lint particles that stick to the emulsion. Are you useing a hardening or non hardening fixer?

No, they won´t, because you use the paper towel to the non emulsion side. The emulsion side you do with your fingers max 2 times, no pressure on the emusion. On the other side the trick is to stop in the right time, don´t let the paper go in pieces. Just turn the paper around when it´s getting too wet. So you need a thick wrap of paper. The paper type need to be a right type, although a normal toilet paper usually will do. There will be some lint particles on the non emulsion side of the film, but they will came of after the film has dried. You don´t need to worrry about them.

[Matus]

In general I find that washing 4x5 and 120 films works the best. 35mm is bit of a problem as the perforations add edges where water drops can hold. If they dry there - they will create spots.

Do not overlook the advice of mfogiel to keep the films under an angle immediately after rinse for a minute or two. It really helps a lot.

Be sure to leave the films to dry in a clean and not too warn or windy environment. Dust is everywhere and if it gets on the film while it is wet, it may stick to it and be hard to remove. Bathroom seems to be the place usually.

[Fawley]

Originally Posted by 3js

No, they won´t, because you use the paper towel to the non emulsion side. The emulsion side you do with your fingers max 2 times ....

Interesting to read about other peoples practises. I've never found water spotting to be a big problem but when it does occur, its usually just where you don't want it. Murphys law. I'm going to have to try this paper towel thing sometime.

[Freakscene]

Originally Posted by damien.murphy

I'm considering distilling my own water, but am just at the thought process stage now. Does anyone here distill their own water ?

Distilled water is essentially non-existant. I have one of these: http://www.millipore.com/catalogue/item/z00q0v0ww which produces ultra-pure water (up to 250 L / day) and it is much less energy sapping and produces MUCH purer water than heat distillation in a home set-up. It uses several ultrafine filters and semi-permeable membranes. This is the same way that "distilled" water that you buy (and a lot of "ultrafine drinking water") is produced. The problem with drinking water in NZ is that it is likely to be very pure spring water with a LOT of dissolved solids rather than deionised water with very few. It's a hazard of having such a good, consistent pure water supply.

Look in the laundry section of the supermarket; distilled water in Oz and NZ is typically sold for steam irons.

Let us know how you go. Good luck.

Marty

[D.O'K.]

I had a similar problem to the OP with 35mm negs. It was solved completely by adding a couple of drops of Tetenal wetting agent to the tank for the last 30 seconds of the wash (and no need for distilled water).

Regards,
D.

[arunrajmohan]

Have you tried for DWater at some of the auto service places. I many countries the radiator is filled with D water. Many places still revitalize their acid auto batteries with distilled water. Yet, I do not think distilled water is essential. Just get photoflo and it will work just fine with any decent filtered non-hard water. Something like Brita water filters or those using resins will remove excess salts from the water. Add a couple of drops of photoflo. I dip the film 3 or 4 times in water with photoflo and hang it. Then I wear a rubber glove and use the index and middle finger as a squeegee and drain most water. Let it dry overnight. Be gentle with squeegeeing when you use some films like efke with soft emulsion. YOu will get a hang of it pretty soon. Cheers.
Arun


PS: Do not think of millipore and such things, instead you are better off investing in a D3x or M9 and such...