Will there be a R5 in Cosina's future?

[lilmsmaggie]

I'm new to this forum and new to rangefinders. Bought my first (used) R3M with 50mm f2 Heliar about a week ago. Very nice. But I was curious. It's been at least four years since Cosina introduced their last model. Since then, Zeiss Ikon has joined the fray.

Don't recall any news from this years Photokina from Cosina. Does anyone forsee a new Bessa RXX coming down the pike?

[Matus]

Well, the question is what kind of significant improvements could be done to the current line that would make the people pay more than pay now. And Cosina does not have much headroom with the price - the Zeiss Ikon price is "only" about factor 2 higher.

I had the R3A for few rolls of film and to me the most desirable updated would be smoother/quieter shutter and better position of neck strap lugs (the camera with average less is too butt-heavy). One could of course wish for "better finish" and smoother feel to all knobs/film reload and such, but that would inevitably come at higher price what would make it collide with Ikon (and possibly used Leicas).

Frankly - I sold the R3A because of the shutter noise, but otherwise it is a very nice camera that can be had for a very reasonable money new and rather cheap used.

[patois]

In theory there could be a digital Bessa. I would buy one but I"m not sure who else would.

[robbeiflex]

Originally Posted by patois

In theory there could be a digital Bessa. I would buy one but I"m not sure who else would.

There is a long running discussion on this here. Currently about 469 people would buy one.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=44927

[kshapero]

Mr K always has some surprises in store. So far its been a great ride.

[kdemas]

Originally Posted by kshapero

Mr K always has some surprises in store. So far its been a great ride.

I agree! You never know what VC has up their sleeve

[lilmsmaggie]

Originally Posted by Matus

Frankly - I sold the R3A because of the shutter noise, but otherwise it is a very nice camera that can be had for a very reasonable money new and rather cheap used.

What camera did you replace it with?

[sper]

The Leica M6 was produced from 1984-2002.

Unless they come out with a full frame or APS-H size sensor RF camera I think they're doing just fine. I mean what could they really add to their line up? 28mm lines in the R2x would be nice, but outside of that there's nothing to update.

This ain't digital. Look to Kodak for the 'upgrades.' We got Portra 400 coming our way! Even the V'lander lens line up is pretty well complete if you ask me.

Like I try not to 'fan-boy' but I'm kind of turning into a Cosina fan boy. They're doing every thing right for the working artist on a budget.

[lilmsmaggie]

Originally Posted by sper

The Leica M6 was produced from 1984-2002.

Unless they come out with a full frame or APS-H size sensor RF camera I think they're doing just fine. I mean what could they really add to their line up? 28mm lines in the R2x would be nice, but outside of that there's nothing to update.

The above statement requires qualification: Yes, it was produced from 1984 thru 2002, BUT -- there were at least three variants of the M6 during that time, e.g. M6J, M6 0.85 and M6 TTL.

And then you had at least 30 special edition M6's.

Bottomline: There's always room for improvement. One doesn't sit on ones laurels and expects the competition to do likewise.

[jsrockit]

Well, the M6 was on the market basically unchanged (with only very small variations in text, color, etc) from 1984 to 1998. The M6J was a special edition IMO. The TTL is a different camera than the M6, so I agree there.

Leica could afford to wait 14 years during the time of the M6. Their only manual focus rangefinder competition at that time was the used market and film was still king. Perhaps CV can still afford to wait as well... who knows.

[chris00nj]

Probably just incremental improvements. I have the Bessa R3a. I like the camera a lot. What could be improved? Ability to see shutter speeds in viewfinder, add a self-timer, and move the lug straps.

I don't think they'll make a digital Bessa, because they make the Espon R-D1 series.
I don't think they'll make lenses which compete with the ones they make for Zeiss.

[Juan Valdenebro]

I can't imagine another member for the best RF line ever... But Maybe Mr. K. can!

Using an R2/3 and an R4 makes a lot of sense...

I've always imagined a small, fixed flat 35 one, tough... A "street machine"...

Cheers,

Juan

[shadowfox]

I'd settle for a Bessa TLR.

[jsrockit]

A Bessa L2 that feels more like the R4m would be nice...

[Roger Hicks]

Ignoring the digital fantasists, it's hard to see whst an R5 could offer that isn't there already.

Cheers,

R.

[Tompas]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Ignoring the digital fantasists, (...)

Quite a lot of fantasies come true, didn't you notice?

[Matus]

Originally Posted by lilmsmaggie

What camera did you replace it with?

Well, actually not really replaced. I got Mamiya 6 with all 3 lenses. I also sold a nice Rolleiflex T to get there (financially).

For the R3A - I also realized too late that I am more of 35 shooter than 50 and and already the 40mm frame lines are hard to see. I did consider the Zeiss Ikon for a while, but then realized that it has nearly the same shutter with very similar sound. But truth to be told I never had that camera in my hand.

I just may get a Leica M2 or M4 in the far future (higher models are just too much cash for me) for low light work and to try out a "real" 35 mm camera (thanks to Rolleiflex I know that feeling in 6x6 ). But I may as well fall for a contax G2 for its lenses ... who knows

Right now my 35mm needs are somewhat covered with small Fuji Silvi f2.8 P&S camera with 25-50/2.8-5.6 zoom lens which acted nicely as a second camera to accompany Mamiya 6 during vacation trips. It seems to be quite good performer with very intelligent flash. In few days I should get first scans from it and will definitely post a review.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Tompas

Quite a lot of fantasies come true, didn't you notice?

...and even more don't come true...


Cheers,

R.

[lilmsmaggie]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Ignoring the digital fantasists, it's hard to see what an R5 could offer that isn't there already.

Considering that we are all just "fantasizing," and some of you have offered up what they might want to see in a new camera from Cosina, let's continue on our fantasy trip and say "IF," Zeiss offered a Ikon ZM for $100 more than the Bessa RXX; would you still respond the same way?

Or lets take the fantasy one step further (not considering used camera market):

Leica sees an opportunity to increase its market share and improve its bottomline, decides to introduce a less expensive model along the design lines of the M3 - M4, but makes film loading easier just like the Zeiss and CV models, and places a MSRP of $1499 to compete with Zeiss and CV. Their Rationale: Not only can we produce a better camera offering, but we can offer it at a lower price point.

What say you ...

[Roger Hicks]

[quote=lilmsmaggie;1437324]Considering that we are all just "fantasizing," and some of you have offered up what they might want to see in a new camera from Cosina, let's continue on our fantasy trip and say "IF," Zeiss offered a Ikon ZM for $100 more than the Bessa RXX; would you still respond the same way?

Or lets take the fantasy one step further (not considering used camera market):

Leica sees an opportunity to increase its market share and improve its bottomline, decides to introduce a less expensive model along the design lines of the M3 - M4, but makes film loading easier just like the Zeiss and CV models, and places a MSRP of $1499 to compete with Zeiss and CV. Their Rationale: Not only can we produce a better camera offering, but we can offer it at a lower price point.

What say you ...[/QUOTE]

I say 'fantasy'.

Zeiss has repeatedly said that a digi cam is not on the cards. Of course they could be lying but I know some of the people involved and I doubt it. Nor can the Zeiss Ikon be reduced to within $100 of the CV cameras, unless they want to sell at a loss.

Making a new camera 'along the design lines of the M3 - M4' is even more of a fantasy, especially at $1499. How are they going to do it? And where? SKILLED labour, remember. Go to the Leica factory and see for yourself. As far as I recall, an MP takes 2-3 hours longer to assemble than an M9. How is your fantasy camera going to save time here?

And how is your fantasy camera better than a classic M? Film loading easier? Hardly. Only, in fact, if you are suffering from severe hardening of the categories.

This is the classic fantasists' argument of "I'll buy a Leica when they stop making Leicas," with the added fantasy of "...and reduce the price by 2/3". Does anyone REALLY think this is likely?

Cheers,

R.

[ZeissFan]

If Cosina wants to do something, how about making a robust rangefinder that doesn't arrive out of kilter?

Otherwise, it's about as mature as it's going to get, unless they get Copal to create a shutter that isn't such a clap-trap. Nice little cameras with terrific value, but they still are a bit unrefined, considering that they're well past the start-up phase.

[shadowfox]

I wonder if Cosina would makes a Barnack-model camera in Bessa-styling, complete with split RF/VF, the size of Leica IIIg.

I might buy that.

[wlewisiii]

I'd be happier if they'd make nice value price LF lenses. Something on the order of a 150/5.6 Symmar convertable or even a single focus Tessar design that has enough coverage on 4x5 for movements but doesn't kill the wallet like most modern glass does.

Now there's a non-digital fantasy for you that's even less likely LOL!

William

[lilmsmaggie]

Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

I say 'fantasy'.

Zeiss has repeatedly said that a digi cam is not on the cards. Of course they could be lying but I know some of the people involved and I doubt it. Nor can the Zeiss Ikon be reduced to within $100 of the CV cameras, unless they want to sell at a loss.

Making a new camera 'along the design lines of the M3 - M4' is even more of a fantasy, especially at $1499. How are they going to do it? And where? SKILLED labour, remember. Go to the Leica factory and see for yourself. As far as I recall, an MP takes 2-3 hours longer to assemble than an M9. How is your fantasy camera going to save time here?

And how is your fantasy camera better than a classic M? Film loading easier? Hardly. Only, in fact, if you are suffering from severe hardening of the categories.

This is the classic fantasists' argument of "I'll buy a Leica when they stop making Leicas," with the added fantasy of "...and reduce the price by 2/3". Does anyone REALLY think this is likely?

IMHO the above comments are examples of Killing creativity, to which I leave you with some examples of missed opportunities when this type of thinking is allowed to prevail:

• In January 1962, The Beatles were turned down by Decca Records because they were considered too similar to the Shadows.

• "No one will ever use more than 640K of memory." wrongly attributed to Bill Gates

• The first agent to whom J.K. Rowling sent Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone rejected her in little more than a day. Her second agent, Christopher Little, was turned down by 12 publishers before Bloomsbury said yes a year later.

[stupid leica]

i think the next bessa should have a major redesign, to accomodate a longer EBL.