Decided on Leica M4, now which lens to buy?

[pixelatedscraps]

I tried searching all different combinations for this but for some reason the search engine kept refusing due to a "your search terms was under the minimum 3 key terms" - forgive me / move this thread if I've put it in the wrong place.

Anyway, here goes (I posted this on another forum but didn't get much information):

My 30th is coming up and my girlfriend has told me she's getting me my dream camera (Leica M4) for my birthday - budget is about USD$1500 (we live in Hong Kong). Although disliking any sort of naming, I guess I would consider myself mostly a street shooter - my three favourite lenses are 35/50/85. I'm not particularly fussed about cosmetics - as long as the vulcanite is in one piece, and any scratches or dings are not too deep, I'm happy with what KEH considers BGN.

An M4, even in BGN condition and a decent, fast 35mm or 50mm lens would push the budget. The 40mm Rokkors seem to be very sharp and according to Stephen Gandy, are just as good as the much more expensive 35mm Summicrons. With a budget of $1500 - and using KEH / Adorama (but not The Bay) as a reference, what would you guys be looking at? I've found an M4 body for $790, which leaves about $600 for a lens + $100 shipping

I've so far narrowed it down to the following lenses:

-50/2 Summicron collapsible= $325
-50/2 Summitar collapsible (the above two with LTM-M mount adapters - cheap here in Hong Kong) = $450
-50/2 Dr summicron (without finder - does this matter on the M4?)= $430
-50/1.5 Nokton Asph.= $330
-35/1.7 or 35/1.4 Nokton (at a pinch could squeeze for the 35/1.2 on the Bay) $330 / $450 / $650

Thanks for any help!

[gilpen123]

The 50 DR Summicron without finder just limits your close focusing to 1 m. I suggest this lens or a Nokton 40 1.4 if you want a faster lens with very low distortion. A Summicron Rigid can also fit the budget and a great lens as the DR.

[maddoc]

It depends a little on your preferences regarding BW film / daylight shooting or more in the night ?

A favorite combination of mine was an M4 with a Leitz 35mm Summaron 1:2.8 lens for BW (and more at daytime). I don't know actual prices but it might fit into your budget.

[pixelatedscraps]

I'm a big low-light fan, street-no-tripod, no flash, portable - my two favourite lenses on my OM-1n are the 50/1.2 and the 85/2 - and on my Mamiya 6 its the wide-angle 50/4.

Scratched out the two collapsibles and looking frantically (to no avail) on KEH for 35/1.2-1.4-1.7 lenses. Part of me is thinking if this is a gift, and one to remember at that - it should have classic Leica glass on it too - perhaps the 35/2.8 Summaron or 50/2 Dr Summicron - I'll check about the front element though.

Thanks!

[shyoon]

If you're looking for a fast lens within your budget, you're essentially limited to CV lenses; either the 35mm or 40mm Nokton or the 35mm Ultron if you can find one. Not to say they aren't bad lenses - they're great alternatives to Leica or Zeiss glass.

That being said, you could maybe find a Leica 50mm f1.5 Summarit within your price range - but as with any old lens, you have to be careful with the condition of the front and rear glass.

Best of luck. The M4 is a great choice!

[ferider]

Depends on what you want to shoot. For "street"/people, get the 35 Nokton, for landscapes, etc, the DR Summicron or 50 Nokton (both great portrait lenses, too), which depending on your need for speed.

Roland.

[jsrockit]

Honestly, I'd go for a Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 and a Leica 50mm Elmar-M. You can get both used together in your budget.

[cidereye]

Originally Posted by jsrockit

Honestly, I'd go for a Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 and a Leica Elmar-M. You can get both used together in your budget.

Agreed, I shoot both on my M8 and it's exactly what I shall shoot on my M4/-2/-P when I get that soon.

The latest CV 35mm M mount pancake II is a stunner of a lens and many consider it as good, if not slightly better than a pre ASPH 35mm Sumi.

[Merkin]

Don't forget to budget for a CLA. You might get lucky and find that your camera didn't need it, but chances are that a BGN m4 could use one. One of the biggest mistakes I have ever made was not immediately having my former Leicas CLA'ed as soon as I got them.

I had the 35 1.4 SC voigtlander lens and loved it. It is a fantastic, well built lens, especially for the price. The only downside is that you will probably have to buy one new, but they still aren't terribly expensive.

ETA: no connection to seller, but you might want to scoop this up instead of a BGN condition m4 from KEH: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot.../product/20862

[Beemermark]

Get either the 50 DR or collapsible, basically same fantastic lens.

[rover]

Originally Posted by Merkin

Don't forget to budget for a CLA. You might get lucky and find that your camera didn't need it, but chances are that a BGN m4 could use one. One of the biggest mistakes I have ever made was not immediately having my former Leicas CLA'ed as soon as I got them.

I had the 35 1.4 SC voigtlander lens and loved it. It is a fantastic, well built lens, especially for the price. The only downside is that you will probably have to buy one new, but they still aren't terribly expensive.

ETA: no connection to seller, but you might want to scoop this up instead of a BGN condition m4 from KEH: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot.../product/20862

The M4 linked above seems like a real winner.

There are a lot of lenses,

Any CV 35mm lens is very good and would fit your budget.

The CV 1.5 and 2.5 50mm lenses share that distinction. A nice 50/2.8 Elmar or Rigid Summicron should also fit the bill.

A used ZM 50 Planar or 35 Biogon would be excellent choices too and close to your budget.

[pixelatedscraps]

Thanks for all the replies everyone - I pm'd robocam regarding his M4 and am waiting for his reply. At the risk of sounding like a noob, can anyone suggest a few places to look for a 35mm Biogon? I checked Adorama & BH (KEH doesn't have any 35mm) and the ones I can find on the 'Bay are all extremely expensive. Is there somewhere else these can be found or am I just looking for the wrong one at the wrong time?

I've narrowed it down to finding a good Dr Summicron 50mm/2 or a VC 35/1.4. Eyes are also open to finding the others that have been suggested here - thanks again

[dacookieman]

I also feel that a Rigid summicron would be great as a first lens, at least for me, i narrowed it down to that when i got my first M, a M2 as my first RF its chrome, classic and dang sharp even wide open. amazing on black and white.

[Tom A]

If you are a "low light" fan - go for the Nokton 35f1.4. For the money it is the best available. As for the 50DR - it is a great lens - but it is heavy and at least 50 years old - the latter can affect it as to lensfog, scratches and fungus. It does look "right" on a M4 though - but looks doesn't take pictures!
Alternative would be the 40mm f1.4 Nokton - can substitute for a 35 and a 50 - and it is a very good lens, even wide open.
As per usual, check Flickr for images with the lenses you are interested in. You don't get the resolution - but tones and angles of view are visible.
Start with one lens and "shoot" yourself in with the camera. Once you have gotten used to it - you can then start looking for glass that complements what you started off with.
The whole idea with a rangefinder is a small, easy to carry "kit" -one or two lenses and "zoom" with your feet instead. beware though, M's are habit forming and like all habits - it gets expensive after a while!!!!

[pixelatedscraps]

Originally Posted by Tom A

The whole idea with a rangefinder is a small, easy to carry "kit" -one or two lenses and "zoom" with your feet instead. beware though, M's are habit forming and like all habits - it gets expensive after a while!!!!

I know that feeling only too well - at one point I had 36 cameras and probably close to 70 lenses before suddenly realising the futility of it all - these are meant to be used, not admired! I'm now down to about 9 I think, after selling off a lot of my old favourites (120/4 Makro-Planar & 50/4 Distagon, Nikon F2A, etc...now I'm back down to the ones I know I will use. An M4 has always been the dream one to own - I've already got the Hasselblad 500C/M and the Mamiya 6 - this is the last one to get! (famous last words, anyone?)

I'm very much definitely a 35/50/90 person - I don't find myself missing any longer focal lengths to be honest - not a big wildlife or nature shooter (partly because there isn't much wildlife here in HK?), so in that respect I know I don't need every single lens out there - particularly when we're talking Leica / Hasselblad prices.

I have narrowed it down further though - its a Leitz lens for the first time - the VC / Biogons can come later!

Out of these, what would your comments be?

-50/2 Summicron (rigid)
-50/2 Dr Summicron
-35/2.8 Summaron
-35/2 Summicron (if I'm lucky enough to find one for around ~$650)

Can anyone tell me the difference between the 35/2 Summicron without finder which is on KEH for over $1000 but the one with finder is $750 - are they the same lens, and can the finder be removed to fit on my M4? - edit: it's the same with the 35/2.8 Summaron - with finder is much cheaper - does this mean it cannot be used with an M4?)

[MCTuomey]

of the leitz you list, either 'cron, because you already have and like that focal length

have to say, though, reconsider a nokton 50/1.5 and either the nokton 35/1.4 or skopar 35/2.5. the 50/1.5 and 35/2.5 can be had for the price of either cron, or nearly so. you could have the M4 and both noktons for around USD1500.

[Tom A]

You can use the 35f2 or 2.8 with the goggles on a M4 - but it is not the ideal solution. the goggles magnify the 50 frame to cover the 35 (they were made for the M3 which does not have the 35 frames). They can be replaced and the lens put in a M2 Summicron mount - not cheap so any saving on the lens will be negated!
At the $650-700 level you should be able to find a Summicron 35f2 vIII (pre-1980). The one on KEH's post is a rarer version - an 8 element vI from the early 60's. This was the first of Leica's F2 in 35mm focal length and at the time was a sensation. It is much vaunted for "bokeh" etc - but in my opinion, it is a mediocre lens today. A vIII is much better and it has less of a reputation - so the prices are more realistic. But, again, do remember that these lenses are 40-50 years old and unless handled with gloves - will show wear and use. They are not cheap to refurbish either.
The 35 and the M are a match made in photographic heaven. Unless you really want more lenses - you could probably survive for the rest of yours and film's life with that combination.

[BillBingham2]

Good to see you reached out on the M4 in the Classifieds. DAG and Sherry both are masters and anything that has gone through their hands is wonderful. It's a very reasonable price for a great camera that was just tuned by the best.

Keep in mind that the 35/1.2 is only a half stop faster than the 35/1.4 and a LOT bigger. If I were going to build a kit for an film M the CV 35/1.4 would be my first stop. I had it's slightly longer cousin (40/1.4) and loved it. It replace my 35/1.7 and 35mm 'Cron VI.

All the ZM glass is wonderful but big, designed with their digital M mount in mind rather than small size. For shooting existing darkness I would go with the 1.1 from CV for cost issues. Fine lens and it gives you one big chunk of light absorbing glass for those really dark places.

Perhaps the next lens should be an 85/90 type. For me, there it's no contest. Get a Nikkor 85/2 Black (only in black it's much lighter). Any of the 85/2 on rangefinders are world class lenses even today. Put you back much less than a recent (read not ASPH or pre) 'Cron.

Good luck, remember your milage may vary and please let us know how you make out.

B2 (;->

[BillBingham2]

I might point out that the last M kit I used had no Leica glass in it at all. It was CV and Nikkor. The leica glass stayed home and I was happier with the results.

B2 (;->

[Juan Valdenebro]

If you want the natural looking lens on your M4, the 35 Summicron is the way to go. Great quality, size and speed.
If you don't care for brand, and do care for sweet out of focus portraiture backgrounds and speed / selective focus, pick the 35 1.2 Nokton by CV.
If you prefer fast, usable wide open, and really light and small with very low distortion, that's the CV 40 1.4 Nokton.

I have the 40. If I was about to receive that M4 and a lens as a gift and could choose, I'd ask for a silver 35 1.2 Nokton...

Cheers,

Juan

[pixelatedscraps]

Am hunting for a 35/2 Summicron (vIII) everywhere as I only have 48 hrs left as an ordering deadline. The silver 35/1.2 Nokton would be a heavenly lens (or the 50/1.1?) but that pushes me over my budget quite a bit as the lenses are at least US$900 - but they are options I would look at for sure in the future.

That said, I find myself struggling to get a good 'hit rate' in terms of accuracy when I shoot wide open with my 50/1.2 on my OM-1n - it could be due to the way I shoot or the viewfinder (which is already pretty good in the OM-1) but I've so far only achieved a 'keep' ratio of about 25% of my shots sadly.

Starting from the beginning I think its looking like (in order of preference):

35/2 Summicron
50/2 Summicron (rigid)
35/2.8 Summaron
50/2 Dr Summicron

I didn't know that you couldn't simply remove the lenses on the goggled Summicrons and just use the framelines in the M4. Lesson learned!

[slantface]

I love the 35mm Summicron, but I shoot a Ver.IV. I would highly recommend the 35mm Summicron, but it is often significantly more expensive than a 50mm Summicron DR.

The 50mm Summicron DR is really amazing though. It was the first lens I owned for Leica mount, and immediately got me hooked. The images I shot came out phenomenal...probably better than a lot of my other Leica glass, and if you are on a budget, this is a great lens to start with.

I also own the 35mm Summaron f2.8, and it too is really really nice, although you might hear otherwise depending on who you talk to. I would recommend this lens if you don't need a lot of low light capability. It is truly a beautiful little piece of work.

All the lenses you listed are great, so I wouldn't worry too much on getting a bad one. Just go with what you think you will use most...low-light shooting, wide-angle, weight, size...whatever is most important to you, adjust your list.

I don't think you can go wrong, so enjoy!!!

[pixelatedscraps]

Just one more question:

If this 50/2 Dr Summicron says 'no finder' in the listing does that mean it is a later Dr for the M2/M4 or is just a Dr for the M3 which is meant to have the finder but doesn't actually come with them in the sale?

[matt335]

I like Gabor & Helen (and many others I assume) have the M4 with a 35mm Summaron F2.8 attached. It's a great lens. Handles street photography rather well and even in low light produces very adequately for overall exposure and focus. I've pitched it up against my summicron and sometimes you cannot tell the difference. Good luck with you decision and might I add, what a wonderful girlfriend you have ! Happy 30th !!

[pixelatedscraps]

I'm having a tough time finding an M4 for under $1000 here in HK but have managed to find some really good prices on lenses (35/2, 35/2.8 & 50/2 Dr) so I'm going to try and buy it all here. There are plenty of M3 / M2s but I've ruled out the M3 due to lack of 35mm framelines, but what do you guys think about the M2? From what I know, the M4 has the 135 lines (which I wouldn't use) and are much easier to load than an M2 - along with the newer rewind crank - is that it though? I can pick it all up for a lot less than $1500 if I went for an M2.