Adobe; that does it!

[wgerrard]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

Tech support, endless updates, bug fixes, etc, are there. Plus the cost of testing is probably higher.

True, but I question the extent of those differences in English-speaking countries, at least. An upgrade or a bug fix that works in the U.S. and Canada ought to work just fine in the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa. Translation does add cost, but is that enough to generate a near-doubling of price in some Euro markets? I believe much of Adobe's serious tech support is sold as separate products.

[Spoks]

Originally Posted by ferider

Amazed how people are ready to spend multiple thousands of dollars on (partially used) hardware, Leicas, MF cameras, scanners and the like, and do not recognize that software needs to be engineered as well.

Roland.

But we do! We understand that a good product like CS4 should cost money. But we are not prepared to pay 33% more than other parts of the world.

[Spoks]

Originally Posted by wgerrard

True, but I question the extent of those differences in English-speaking countries, at least. An upgrade or a bug fix that works in the U.S. and Canada ought to work just fine in the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa. Translation does add cost, but is that enough to generate a near-doubling of price in some Euro markets? I believe much of Adobe's serious tech support is sold as separate products.

We are talking here of 'English' versions of CS4. Translated version are even more expensive. Which means that they are hardly sold here in Norway at all.

[wgerrard]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

For many users, and I am beginning to think I might be one of them, who are not doing print work (and thus do not need CMYK) and other PS features, but are just tweaking photos, Elements is actually just fine, as is even iPhoto.

I have used the Gimp on and off for years, but only under Linux. It's not photoshop, but if you combine it with other apps like Graphic Converter, it can be pretty powerful.

My use of PS is limited to photo tweaking. I'm not at all convinced that I do a better job with PS than I did before with PSE. Sure, I an play around with curves and stuff in PS, but I almost invariably go with the "auto" options.

For that matter, the online tools offered by Flickr and Picasa do a surprisingly nice job.

I'm waiting for a product, online or local, that will learn my preferences and habits, and then automatically work through a directory of image files without my intervention. I could review the work and tweak the results, if necessary.

[Olsen]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

I am not convinced after reading the posts, which followed Spoks', that there is evidence that EU prices are indeed 33% more, at all times (pre VAT). Also it is unclear how Adobe products are distributed in the EU, if in fact other pricing issues are not at work, and prices are not being inflated/supported by other chains of distribution.

Having said the above, and having lived in Spain and Italy and the UK for short periods, prices in Europe never seemed to be very competitive, there seemed to be less cut-throat sales. Remember Adobe cannot set list prices in the US, but must match sales by retailers like Amazon, who may decide to literally sell a product at cost to increase traffic.

I have not lived in Europe for 10 years, are places like Best Buy and Walmart appearing, where goods are sold at tiny markups?

The market place for photo gear is now 'international'.

When the dollar fell 30% th automn of 2008 litterally a busload of Norwegians flew to NY to empty the shelves of B & H. Norwegian national TV even had a news spot on this.

Myself, I go to Singapore regularly. That's where I buy most of my photo gear. When I am in the Cathay Photo store it is 'full' of Europeans shopping to save the VAT they would be obliged to pay back home. If they can get another 30% discount it is 'just marvelous'.

We all travel more than before. Adobe should take this into account.

[Al Patterson]

Originally Posted by wgerrard

True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.

As I alluded to earlier, I know that Microsoft products available in the UK when I was there -- the mid-1990's -- were pressed in Ireland, yet sold for almost twice their U.S. price. If you asked the shop about it, they'd say it cost a lot to ship the product from the States.

No cost for testing and shipping? Yeah, I'd hire YOU as my accountant. We'd be in bankruptcy court PDQ...

[Spoks]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

I am not convinced after reading the posts, which followed Spoks', that there is evidence that EU prices are indeed 33% more, at all times (pre VAT). Also it is unclear how Adobe products are distributed in the EU, if in fact other pricing issues are not at work, and prices are not being inflated/supported by other chains of distribution.

Having said the above, and having lived in Spain and Italy and the UK for short periods, prices in Europe never seemed to be very competitive, there seemed to be less cut-throat sales. Remember Adobe cannot set list prices in the US, but must match sales by retailers like Amazon, who may decide to literally sell a product at cost to increase traffic.

I have not lived in Europe for 10 years, are places like Best Buy and Walmart appearing, where goods are sold at tiny markups?

Adobe products are sold all kinds of sources here in Europe. Ranging from cheap sellers (like Giganten) to prominent photo gear shops - to in-line.

[wgerrard]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

I am not convinced after reading the posts, which followed Spoks', that there is evidence that EU prices are indeed 33% more, at all times (pre VAT). Also it is unclear how Adobe products are distributed in the EU, if in fact other pricing issues are not at work, and prices are not being inflated/supported by other chains of distribution.

I took the prices I posted off the Adobe site, which lists prices per region and country, and then made the currency conversions using today's rates. I do wonder how many people buy from that site versus a local retailer.

Also, what would happen if a European buyer tried to buy at the U.S. price? Does Adobe check your IP or shipping address and then flip you over to the other price?

Adobe also offer delivery via download, which would seem to eliminate many of the reasons for a price differential.

[ferider]

Originally Posted by wgerrard

True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.

Manufacturing doesn't really impact the geography-dependent costs.

Support does. And for software, support is expensive. It includes software updates, phone support, remote marketing, etc. My wife had a problem with her Norton license the other day. She literally spent half a day on the phone and on the internet to get it fixed - a technically trivial issue. She spent more time than buying a new Norton copy would have cost.

Average support quality for many services in the US is lousy, compared to Europe, and worse, consumers are used to it. Ever played phone tag with PG&E or AT&T ? That's why support is cheaper here.

I used to work in a tiny Swiss software company. Like our competitors, we did have a 100% markup for Japan, and justifyably so, since we had traveling, local support and marketing overhead. The product was manufactured in Switzerland, and sent via ftp on release.


It's not trivial. We ourselves make the choice where we live. I live about 30 miles away from Adobe. House prices here are probably twice (?) the equivalent house prices in Oslo. Taxes are completely different. And so is health care, unemployment insurance and other benefits. Warrantee laws are different. Why should product prices be the same across all geographies ? Just because the product can be had via an internet connection ?

BTW, Nikon and Canon camera prices are different when you compare grey vs. US market prices. And German cars are more expensive in the US than in Germany, even when built in the US. Also, they are usually configured differently. Etc.

We're talking about Adobe, not AIG.

Roland.

[wgerrard]

Originally Posted by Al Patterson

No cost for testing and shipping? Yeah, I'd hire YOU as my accountant. We'd be in bankruptcy court PDQ...

i'll grant you local shipping, i.e., from a local pressing shop, but I won't grant international shipping costs unless the finished cellophane-wrapped box is actually shipped internationally. As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.

And, as I mentioned above, Adobe offers download as a delivery option. Meaning, no shipping costs at all.

As for testing, do we know for a fact that PS is subject to a different testing regime for the European market? Is there a reason why my American copy of PS would develop problems if I moved to Europe?

Do we know exactly how different is the product sold in Europe?

[wgerrard]

Originally Posted by ferider

Manufacturing doesn't really impact the geography-dependent costs.

Support does. And for software, support is expensive. It includes software updates, phone support, remote marketing, etc. My wife had a problem with her Norton license the other day. She literally spent half a day on the phone and on the internet to get it fixed - a technically trivial issue. She spent more time than buying a new Norton copy would have cost.

Average support quality for many services in the US is lousy, compared to Europe, and worse, consumers are used to it. Ever played phone tag with PG&E or AT&T ? That's why support is cheaper here.

I used to work in a tiny Swiss software company. Like our competitors, we did have a 100% markup for Japan, and justifyably so, since we had traveling, local support and marketing overhead. The product was manufactured in Switzerland, and sent via ftp on release.


It's not trivial. We ourselves make the choice where we live. I live about 30 miles away from Adobe. House prices here are probably twice (?) the equivalent house prices in Oslo. Taxes are completely different. And so is health care, unemployment insurance and other benefits. Warrantee laws are different. Why should product prices be the same across all geographies ? Just because the product can be had via an internet connection ?

BTW, Nikon and Canon camera prices are different when you compare grey vs. US market prices. And German cars are more expensive in the US than in Germany, even when built in the US. Also, they are usually configured differently. Etc.

We're talking about Adobe, not AIG.

Roland.

Agree, those are all legitimate reasons for price differences. Certainly better than just asserting "because we can".

And, as any American who even occasionally visits Europe knows, it's a more expensive place to live. Or, at least, shop. The different levels of support provided by tax dollars makes direct comparisons tricky.

These things work both ways, too. I have a fair number of books purchased in the UK that were also published in the U.S. The U.S. version, after the currency conversion, is usually considerably less expensive.

Used camera equipment also seems to be noticeably more expensive from the online venues of European businesses like Leicashop.

Customer support certainly sucks in the U.S., pretty much across the board. People read canned answers from a canned script. Unless I buy a package, Adobe support seems to be limited. I once posted a question on their site and got a response back a month later. Nothing, however, can compare to the agony of customer service at my local cable outfit.

[sjw617]

[quote=wgerrard;1265791As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.[/quote]
Maybe the cost of losing all those trucks in the Irish Sea.
Download difference is most likely the cost difference in support and tariffs. If a product is 'made' in the US isn't it still imported by a country to be downloaded. Import tariffs would apply and be different for EU and non EU countries.

Steve

[NickTrop]

French wine costs more to buy in the US than it does in France... The outrage!

[gnarayan]

Originally Posted by Olsen

I am sure most Americans would think twice about paying that much.

Which is probably why they don't.

Price is what the market will pay and if the European market is willing to pay more than the American one, then you can't really blame Adobe for taking advantage of it. Any more than you can blame Leica for instance for charging what they do for an M.

Convince all of Europe not to buy at this price and then you might get change. Or contribute to making GIMP better.

[martin s]

Originally Posted by NickTrop

French wine costs more to buy in the US than it does in France... The outrage!

A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software?

martin

[Spoks]

Originally Posted by gnarayan

Which is probably why they don't.

Price is what the market will pay and if the European market is willing to pay more than the American one, then you can't really blame Adobe for taking advantage of it. Any more than you can blame Leica for instance for charging what they do for an M.

Convince all of Europe not to buy at this price and then you might get change. Or contribute to making GIMP better.

This is indeed the point we are trying to make; there is no consumer market for a CS4 at $ 1,375. I am sure there is no market for the CS4 at this price level in the US either.

[gnarayan]

Originally Posted by Spoks

This is indeed the point we are trying to make; there is no consumer market for a CS4 at $ 1,375. I am sure there is no market for the CS4 at this price level in the US either.

I got your point.

Mine was that you might have better luck writing to their customer service department or retailers that carry their product and actually trying to organize something useful.

What did you think you were going to achieve ranting on RFF.

For what its worth, I use the GIMP and RawTherapee. Avoid piracy, complaints about the price and does what I need.

[NickTrop]

Originally Posted by martin s

A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software? martin

Not from a product mark-up standpoint. If I want something and it's only made in X country, and that's the only game in town, a variable portion of my mark up will go to "economic rent".... Pricing is about "what the market will bear"... if "what the market will bear" is greater in the European market than it is in the US market... that's the price.

Perhaps a better example are DVDs and the whole "region" thing. DVDs cost pennies to produce, the US consumer pays $20-ish per title for major releases domestically. China is a huge market but they ain't spending a week's worth of wages in their economy on a DVD, so in their region the same exact DVD I paid $20 US for cost the Chinese $1.50, or whatever.

The intitial post suggests Adobe is treating the Europeans unfairly or is discriminating. Far be it from me to defend any SW giant, but in this case it's just not true. This kind of thing goes on all the time, pricing discrepencies - some rather significant, always exist between domestic product and import items for a variety of reasons, some political. You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bare, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.

[Jamie123]

Originally Posted by NickTrop

You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bear, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.

It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.

This pseudo free market argument "it's about what the market will bare" is way too simplistic. This only works when there is real competition. That's why we (at least in my country) have government agencies whose job it is to prevent the formation of cartels that artificially keep the prices high just because the market will pay anything they ask.

Now I'm in no way suggesting that this is the case with Adobe or that the government should intervene in their price policy but I'm saying that such a simplistic view of "the market" as is often presented by many politicians just doesn't cut it. The market's more complex than that.

What should one do about Adobe's high price discrepancies? Just not buy their products and shut up? I say no. I say make some noise, rant all you want, tell your friends about it. If enough people do it it may reach the point where they have to spend more on marketing to counteract the bad press than what they're making by keeping the prices high.

[tom.w.bn]

The Adobe online store for Europe is ridiculous. You have two options. Download or getting the software package via mail. If I download the software I pay 21% VAT because the download server is located in Ireland, even if VAT in Germany is 19%. If I choose the mail option I pay 10 or 20 EUR shipping cost. So there is no way to get the price I would pay in a store.

But tell me the alternatives? If you need all this highend stuff, there is none. In the middle segment where PSE plays, there are a lot of alternatives but I still like PSE best.

[wgerrard]

Originally Posted by Jamie123

It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.

I think that's probably the case, within reason, for legitimate professionals, i.e., someone whose income is dependent on using Photoshop and who can write off a higher price and/or pass it along to customers.

The full version of Photoshop is not an amateur product, even if they gave it away. It makes too many assumptions about the experience and knowledge of the user. A package intended for amateur photo tweakers would include "click here to make the colors better"-style capability, which is exactly what PSE offers.

This pseudo free market argument "it's about what the market will bare" is way too simplistic. This only works when there is real competition. That's why we (at least in my country) have government agencies whose job it is to prevent the formation of cartels that artificially keep the prices high just because the market will pay anything they ask.

I agree with that. When one or a small number of companies dominate a market, they become resistant to pressure to lower prices, and can obviously collude to keep prices high.

What should one do about Adobe's high price discrepancies? Just not buy their products and shut up? I say no. I say make some noise, rant all you want, tell your friends about it. If enough people do it it may reach the point where they have to spend more on marketing to counteract the bad press than what they're making by keeping the prices high.

Well, I don't think complaining about Adobe's prices is going to lower their prices. If they spend more on marketing to counter the complaints, that just increases their costs, which they will likely pass along to customers. Not buying their products might have an impact, if their sales in an individual country are enough to merit their concern.

[Olsen]

My conclusion is that while the camera producers have been very fast at adjusting to the new reality of consumers 'buying where it is cheaper', Adobe still lives in a world where they think they can charge 30% more for the same product depending on 'what country'. They will, I am sure, prosper from changing their price policy to the same as that of Canon and Nikon. That simple.

[Spoks]

Originally Posted by NickTrop

Not from a product mark-up standpoint. If I want something and it's only made in X country, and that's the only game in town, a variable portion of my mark up will go to "economic rent".... Pricing is about "what the market will bear"... if "what the market will bear" is greater in the European market than it is in the US market... that's the price.

Perhaps a better example are DVDs and the whole "region" thing. DVDs cost pennies to produce, the US consumer pays $20-ish per title for major releases domestically. China is a huge market but they ain't spending a week's worth of wages in their economy on a DVD, so in their region the same exact DVD I paid $20 US for cost the Chinese $1.50, or whatever.

The intitial post suggests Adobe is treating the Europeans unfairly or is discriminating. Far be it from me to defend any SW giant, but in this case it's just not true. This kind of thing goes on all the time, pricing discrepencies - some rather significant, always exist between domestic product and import items for a variety of reasons, some political. You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bear, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.

It is not true what you are claiming. Look up the prices of Canon 5D II or Nikon D70 around the world. Any difference can be explained by taxation or currency fluctuations. A Canon 5D II cost practically the same all over the world, tax free. If any large difference appear, like under the big dollar crash of 2008, customers will soon find that out and pick up the advantage. Like what many European photo gear customers did back in late 2008. They picked up a ticket to New York, they still go for about $ 1,000, and bought enough photo gear to save more than $ 2,000.

This is what is happening with Adobe CS4 too. Companies and professional users might still buy CS4 at $ 1,100 tax free here in Norway. But advanced amateurs buy them overseas (NY, Abu Dabi, Canary Islands, Hong Kong etc.) for $ 600 tax free. Their alternative is buying them in Norway - included VAT, for $ 1,375. I am sure, quite a few professionals, like lone professional photographers, do also buy them overseas for $ 600.

[Al Patterson]

Originally Posted by wgerrard

i'll grant you local shipping, i.e., from a local pressing shop, but I won't grant international shipping costs unless the finished cellophane-wrapped box is actually shipped internationally. As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.

And, as I mentioned above, Adobe offers download as a delivery option. Meaning, no shipping costs at all.

As for testing, do we know for a fact that PS is subject to a different testing regime for the European market? Is there a reason why my American copy of PS would develop problems if I moved to Europe?

Do we know exactly how different is the product sold in Europe?

Even with download, one has to consider the cost of the server farm where the files come from. There is cost of the hardware, the OS license on the servers, rent or mortgage on the building, not to mention employee costs.

True, a software based distribution system will lead to cheaper product than mailing boxes around. I'm betting iTunes makes more per song at 99 cents than when I bought a vinyl 45RPM record back in the day for $1.29 or whatever, but I thought your assumption in the message I replied ignored many of the expenses incurred by Adobe. I'd like to look at their financials, but I'm too lazy to do so. The idea that testing costs ends when CS4 is released for example, would assume that these resources aren't maybe starting work on CS5 or Elements9, or whatever the next product in the pipeline may be.

I do agree with the OP that I'd be offended if I paid more for any product than cost of product elsewhere plus applicable taxes.

As for your testing and version questions, they are good ones, but I have no idea how to answer them, except that I'm sure a US version run on a computer in France will work just fine.

[Spoks]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

I would not hold my breath on that. The US is a friendly market for Adobe.

It should not suprise me that is how they are thinking. If so, it is not very professional, - compared to how Canon and Nikon are doing business.

But it really is no problem. We wont buy a CS4 for $ 1,100/1,375 when we can buy them for $ 600 elsewhere. If Adobe are looking for stupid farmers they should look elsewhere. Ha, ha!