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Old 02-21-2010   #41
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Most pharmaceuticals.
You can buy a pallet of painkillers for a price reduction of 5.000 Euros on a Porsche 911. We pay our health care costs over the tax bill. Most medicines are subsidized, one way or the other, over the tax bill. Then it is difficult to compare what 'the real' price is.
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Old 02-21-2010   #42
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It's valid to question extreme differences in software pricing from one country to the next. The shipping costs for the raw material -- data -- are essentially zero. If the CD/DVD is pressed locally, it's difficult to imagine a reason for the differences.

It's worth noting that the $299 Adobe targets only registered Photoshop Elements owners. It's not a Photoshop upgrade offer. And, that Adobe's price for PS in the U.S. is $699, while the price to Norway is, at today's rate, $1094 ex VAT; the Euro price seems to be a bit over $1300 in many locations; the UK price ex VAT is $826 while the price next door in Ireland is $913 ex VAT.

I'd be curious to understand the reasons behind those variations.
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Old 02-21-2010   #43
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The OPs numbers are wrong. Biggest mark-up is 66 percent, see here: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technol...ripoff_Britain, with an average of around 30%.

Software markup from the US to the outside is typical, and worse to Japan than to Europe. But, speaking from the other side of the fence (I'm not with Adobe ...), support is more expensive.

Why they do it ? Because they can. Don't like it, don't buy it.

Amazed how people are ready to spend multiple thousands of dollars on (partially used) hardware, Leicas, MF cameras, scanners and the like, and do not recognize that software needs to be engineered as well.

Roland.

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Old 02-21-2010   #44
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I think its quite decent of Adobe to provide most of the functionality needed by the great majority of people in the Elements version at a reasonable price. I've been using it for a few years and I am only now starting to see if CS4 might be for me. I do understand that there are situations when elements is not enough, even when not used in a professional context, but then again, there are times when an M9 would be better to have then a P&S camera too... This is not to justify great price differences between the US and EU though.

Also, there are other alternatives as already pointed out. How does the freeware GIMP compare to CS4 and Elements? (I don't know the answer.)
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Old 02-21-2010   #45
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You have got to be kidding me! People on this forum buy the most expensive cameras and lenses in the world (excluding Hassy's) and your going to complain about a few dollars for a software program. If you do not want to pay the price use something else, there are many available including some supplied from your camera manufacture. Please forgive me for such an outburst, but I live on a fixed income, drool after an M8 or M9 and a few lenses, but realize that unless I hit the lottery it is an impossible dream. I am thankful for my Nikon D3OO and Capture NX.
Thank you.

To Spoks: did you even read what Pickett and others have said? Your numbers are wrong anyways, so not only are you a whiner, you're a wrong whiner. I'm sure your precious Facebook groups will change the world.
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Old 02-21-2010   #46
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Originally Posted by ferider View Post

Amazed how people are ready to spend multiple thousands of dollars on (partially used) hardware, Leicas, MF cameras, scanners and the like, and do not recognize that software needs to be engineered as well.

Roland.
True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.

As I alluded to earlier, I know that Microsoft products available in the UK when I was there -- the mid-1990's -- were pressed in Ireland, yet sold for almost twice their U.S. price. If you asked the shop about it, they'd say it cost a lot to ship the product from the States.
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Old 02-21-2010   #47
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
It's valid to question extreme differences in software pricing from one country to the next. The shipping costs for the raw material -- data -- are essentially zero. If the CD/DVD is pressed locally, it's difficult to imagine a reason for the differences.

It's worth noting that the $299 Adobe targets only registered Photoshop Elements owners. It's not a Photoshop upgrade offer. And, that Adobe's price for PS in the U.S. is $699, while the price to Norway is, at today's rate, $1094 ex VAT; the Euro price seems to be a bit over $1300 in many locations; the UK price ex VAT is $826 while the price next door in Ireland is $913 ex VAT.

I'd be curious to understand the reasons behind those variations.
Thanks for the thorough update.

There is no reason there should be any major unexplainable price differences anymore! (Sure, currency variations happen).

I follow prices of Canon cameras, lenses etc. Canon prices their products at about the same level all over the world. In those few instances I have registered a major difference the prices are rather lower in countries with a high VAT (Europe!). The few instances I check Nikon prices it seems to follow the same patern.

Adobe should do the same: Try to have the same price of their products all over the world. The CS4 should cost the same all over the world! With particularly 'consumer products', directed towards ordinary consumers that are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (VAT), they should try to keep a lower price in these markets to see to that the VAT itself gets as low as possible.
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Old 02-21-2010   #48
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Originally Posted by tic View Post
How does the freeware GIMP compare to CS4 and Elements? (I don't know the answer.)
Elements is a very good product at a very good price. It lacks some of the capabilities of full PS, but workarounds are often available on the web and elsewhere.

GIMP is capable, with many, but not all, of the capabilities of PS. The interface seems to annoy many people, especially experienced PS users.

Once you leave behind the world of tweaking photos, however, PS seems to be just about the only game in town for pros.
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Old 02-21-2010   #49
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Thanks for the thorough update.

There is no reason there should be any major unexplainable price differences anymore! (Sure, currency variations happen)...Adobe should... Try to have the same price of their products all over the world. The CS4 should cost the same all over the world! With particularly 'consumer products', directed towards ordinary consumers that are obliged to pay a hefty sales tax (VAT), they should try to keep a lower price in these markets to see to that the VAT itself gets as low as possible.
Olsen, I would like to understand the reason behind the price differences, but I'm not ready to assume it's only simple greed. Other potential factors do exist. But, most of the conventional reasons behind high prices for imports, other than currency rates, do seem to not to apply to software.
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Old 02-21-2010   #50
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
Olsen, I would like to understand the reason behind the price differences, but I'm not ready to assume it's only simple greed. Other potential factors do exist. But, most of the conventional reasons behind high prices for imports, other than currency rates, do seem to not to apply to software.
When Canon can keep equal prices internationally on their 5D II than Adobe should be in no less possition to do the same. I don't want 'an explanation'. I want lower prices! There is no reason why we should pay 30% more for such a product. Add 25% VAT on the 1,100 $ net price of a CS4 here in Norway and it costs ordinary consumers 1.375 $. I am sure most Americans would think twice about paying that much.
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Old 02-21-2010   #51
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Amazed how people are ready to spend multiple thousands of dollars on (partially used) hardware, Leicas, MF cameras, scanners and the like, and do not recognize that software needs to be engineered as well.

Roland.
But we do! We understand that a good product like CS4 should cost money. But we are not prepared to pay 33% more than other parts of the world.
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Old 02-21-2010   #52
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True, but I question the extent of those differences in English-speaking countries, at least. An upgrade or a bug fix that works in the U.S. and Canada ought to work just fine in the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa. Translation does add cost, but is that enough to generate a near-doubling of price in some Euro markets? I believe much of Adobe's serious tech support is sold as separate products.
We are talking here of 'English' versions of CS4. Translated version are even more expensive. Which means that they are hardly sold here in Norway at all.
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Old 02-21-2010   #53
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.

As I alluded to earlier, I know that Microsoft products available in the UK when I was there -- the mid-1990's -- were pressed in Ireland, yet sold for almost twice their U.S. price. If you asked the shop about it, they'd say it cost a lot to ship the product from the States.
No cost for testing and shipping? Yeah, I'd hire YOU as my accountant. We'd be in bankruptcy court PDQ...

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Old 02-21-2010   #54
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True, but once the code is finalized, there is no cost for assembly, testing, shipping, etc. You pull it down from a server and burn DVD's. You can't really compare the costs of distributing and selling software with those of hardware.
Manufacturing doesn't really impact the geography-dependent costs.

Support does. And for software, support is expensive. It includes software updates, phone support, remote marketing, etc. My wife had a problem with her Norton license the other day. She literally spent half a day on the phone and on the internet to get it fixed - a technically trivial issue. She spent more time than buying a new Norton copy would have cost.

Average support quality for many services in the US is lousy, compared to Europe, and worse, consumers are used to it. Ever played phone tag with PG&E or AT&T ? That's why support is cheaper here.

I used to work in a tiny Swiss software company. Like our competitors, we did have a 100% markup for Japan, and justifyably so, since we had traveling, local support and marketing overhead. The product was manufactured in Switzerland, and sent via ftp on release.


It's not trivial. We ourselves make the choice where we live. I live about 30 miles away from Adobe. House prices here are probably twice (?) the equivalent house prices in Oslo. Taxes are completely different. And so is health care, unemployment insurance and other benefits. Warrantee laws are different. Why should product prices be the same across all geographies ? Just because the product can be had via an internet connection ?

BTW, Nikon and Canon camera prices are different when you compare grey vs. US market prices. And German cars are more expensive in the US than in Germany, even when built in the US. Also, they are usually configured differently. Etc.

We're talking about Adobe, not AIG.

Roland.

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Old 02-21-2010   #55
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No cost for testing and shipping? Yeah, I'd hire YOU as my accountant. We'd be in bankruptcy court PDQ...
i'll grant you local shipping, i.e., from a local pressing shop, but I won't grant international shipping costs unless the finished cellophane-wrapped box is actually shipped internationally. As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.

And, as I mentioned above, Adobe offers download as a delivery option. Meaning, no shipping costs at all.

As for testing, do we know for a fact that PS is subject to a different testing regime for the European market? Is there a reason why my American copy of PS would develop problems if I moved to Europe?

Do we know exactly how different is the product sold in Europe?
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Old 02-21-2010   #56
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Manufacturing doesn't really impact the geography-dependent costs.

Support does. And for software, support is expensive. It includes software updates, phone support, remote marketing, etc. My wife had a problem with her Norton license the other day. She literally spent half a day on the phone and on the internet to get it fixed - a technically trivial issue. She spent more time than buying a new Norton copy would have cost.

Average support quality for many services in the US is lousy, compared to Europe, and worse, consumers are used to it. Ever played phone tag with PG&E or AT&T ? That's why support is cheaper here.

I used to work in a tiny Swiss software company. Like our competitors, we did have a 100% markup for Japan, and justifyably so, since we had traveling, local support and marketing overhead. The product was manufactured in Switzerland, and sent via ftp on release.


It's not trivial. We ourselves make the choice where we live. I live about 30 miles away from Adobe. House prices here are probably twice (?) the equivalent house prices in Oslo. Taxes are completely different. And so is health care, unemployment insurance and other benefits. Warrantee laws are different. Why should product prices be the same across all geographies ? Just because the product can be had via an internet connection ?

BTW, Nikon and Canon camera prices are different when you compare grey vs. US market prices. And German cars are more expensive in the US than in Germany, even when built in the US. Also, they are usually configured differently. Etc.

We're talking about Adobe, not AIG.

Roland.
Agree, those are all legitimate reasons for price differences. Certainly better than just asserting "because we can".

And, as any American who even occasionally visits Europe knows, it's a more expensive place to live. Or, at least, shop. The different levels of support provided by tax dollars makes direct comparisons tricky.

These things work both ways, too. I have a fair number of books purchased in the UK that were also published in the U.S. The U.S. version, after the currency conversion, is usually considerably less expensive.

Used camera equipment also seems to be noticeably more expensive from the online venues of European businesses like Leicashop.

Customer support certainly sucks in the U.S., pretty much across the board. People read canned answers from a canned script. Unless I buy a package, Adobe support seems to be limited. I once posted a question on their site and got a response back a month later. Nothing, however, can compare to the agony of customer service at my local cable outfit.
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Old 02-21-2010   #57
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[quote=wgerrard;1265791As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.[/quote]
Maybe the cost of losing all those trucks in the Irish Sea.
Download difference is most likely the cost difference in support and tariffs. If a product is 'made' in the US isn't it still imported by a country to be downloaded. Import tariffs would apply and be different for EU and non EU countries.

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Old 02-21-2010   #58
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French wine costs more to buy in the US than it does in France... The outrage!
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Old 02-21-2010   #59
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I am sure most Americans would think twice about paying that much.
Which is probably why they don't.

Price is what the market will pay and if the European market is willing to pay more than the American one, then you can't really blame Adobe for taking advantage of it. Any more than you can blame Leica for instance for charging what they do for an M.

Convince all of Europe not to buy at this price and then you might get change. Or contribute to making GIMP better.
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Old 02-21-2010   #60
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French wine costs more to buy in the US than it does in France... The outrage!
A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software?

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Old 02-21-2010   #61
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Which is probably why they don't.

Price is what the market will pay and if the European market is willing to pay more than the American one, then you can't really blame Adobe for taking advantage of it. Any more than you can blame Leica for instance for charging what they do for an M.

Convince all of Europe not to buy at this price and then you might get change. Or contribute to making GIMP better.
This is indeed the point we are trying to make; there is no consumer market for a CS4 at $ 1,375. I am sure there is no market for the CS4 at this price level in the US either.
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Old 02-21-2010   #62
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This is indeed the point we are trying to make; there is no consumer market for a CS4 at $ 1,375. I am sure there is no market for the CS4 at this price level in the US either.
I got your point.

Mine was that you might have better luck writing to their customer service department or retailers that carry their product and actually trying to organize something useful.

What did you think you were going to achieve ranting on RFF.

For what its worth, I use the GIMP and RawTherapee. Avoid piracy, complaints about the price and does what I need.
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Old 02-21-2010   #63
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A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software? martin
Not from a product mark-up standpoint. If I want something and it's only made in X country, and that's the only game in town, a variable portion of my mark up will go to "economic rent".... Pricing is about "what the market will bear"... if "what the market will bear" is greater in the European market than it is in the US market... that's the price.

Perhaps a better example are DVDs and the whole "region" thing. DVDs cost pennies to produce, the US consumer pays $20-ish per title for major releases domestically. China is a huge market but they ain't spending a week's worth of wages in their economy on a DVD, so in their region the same exact DVD I paid $20 US for cost the Chinese $1.50, or whatever.

The intitial post suggests Adobe is treating the Europeans unfairly or is discriminating. Far be it from me to defend any SW giant, but in this case it's just not true. This kind of thing goes on all the time, pricing discrepencies - some rather significant, always exist between domestic product and import items for a variety of reasons, some political. You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bare, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.

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Old 02-21-2010   #64
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You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bear, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.
It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.

This pseudo free market argument "it's about what the market will bare" is way too simplistic. This only works when there is real competition. That's why we (at least in my country) have government agencies whose job it is to prevent the formation of cartels that artificially keep the prices high just because the market will pay anything they ask.

Now I'm in no way suggesting that this is the case with Adobe or that the government should intervene in their price policy but I'm saying that such a simplistic view of "the market" as is often presented by many politicians just doesn't cut it. The market's more complex than that.

What should one do about Adobe's high price discrepancies? Just not buy their products and shut up? I say no. I say make some noise, rant all you want, tell your friends about it. If enough people do it it may reach the point where they have to spend more on marketing to counteract the bad press than what they're making by keeping the prices high.
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Old 02-21-2010   #65
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The Adobe online store for Europe is ridiculous. You have two options. Download or getting the software package via mail. If I download the software I pay 21% VAT because the download server is located in Ireland, even if VAT in Germany is 19%. If I choose the mail option I pay 10 or 20 EUR shipping cost. So there is no way to get the price I would pay in a store.

But tell me the alternatives? If you need all this highend stuff, there is none. In the middle segment where PSE plays, there are a lot of alternatives but I still like PSE best.
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Old 02-21-2010   #66
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It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.
I think that's probably the case, within reason, for legitimate professionals, i.e., someone whose income is dependent on using Photoshop and who can write off a higher price and/or pass it along to customers.

The full version of Photoshop is not an amateur product, even if they gave it away. It makes too many assumptions about the experience and knowledge of the user. A package intended for amateur photo tweakers would include "click here to make the colors better"-style capability, which is exactly what PSE offers.

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This pseudo free market argument "it's about what the market will bare" is way too simplistic. This only works when there is real competition. That's why we (at least in my country) have government agencies whose job it is to prevent the formation of cartels that artificially keep the prices high just because the market will pay anything they ask.
I agree with that. When one or a small number of companies dominate a market, they become resistant to pressure to lower prices, and can obviously collude to keep prices high.

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What should one do about Adobe's high price discrepancies? Just not buy their products and shut up? I say no. I say make some noise, rant all you want, tell your friends about it. If enough people do it it may reach the point where they have to spend more on marketing to counteract the bad press than what they're making by keeping the prices high.
Well, I don't think complaining about Adobe's prices is going to lower their prices. If they spend more on marketing to counter the complaints, that just increases their costs, which they will likely pass along to customers. Not buying their products might have an impact, if their sales in an individual country are enough to merit their concern.
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Old 02-21-2010   #67
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My conclusion is that while the camera producers have been very fast at adjusting to the new reality of consumers 'buying where it is cheaper', Adobe still lives in a world where they think they can charge 30% more for the same product depending on 'what country'. They will, I am sure, prosper from changing their price policy to the same as that of Canon and Nikon. That simple.
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Old 02-21-2010   #68
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Not from a product mark-up standpoint. If I want something and it's only made in X country, and that's the only game in town, a variable portion of my mark up will go to "economic rent".... Pricing is about "what the market will bear"... if "what the market will bear" is greater in the European market than it is in the US market... that's the price.

Perhaps a better example are DVDs and the whole "region" thing. DVDs cost pennies to produce, the US consumer pays $20-ish per title for major releases domestically. China is a huge market but they ain't spending a week's worth of wages in their economy on a DVD, so in their region the same exact DVD I paid $20 US for cost the Chinese $1.50, or whatever.

The intitial post suggests Adobe is treating the Europeans unfairly or is discriminating. Far be it from me to defend any SW giant, but in this case it's just not true. This kind of thing goes on all the time, pricing discrepencies - some rather significant, always exist between domestic product and import items for a variety of reasons, some political. You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bear, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.
It is not true what you are claiming. Look up the prices of Canon 5D II or Nikon D70 around the world. Any difference can be explained by taxation or currency fluctuations. A Canon 5D II cost practically the same all over the world, tax free. If any large difference appear, like under the big dollar crash of 2008, customers will soon find that out and pick up the advantage. Like what many European photo gear customers did back in late 2008. They picked up a ticket to New York, they still go for about $ 1,000, and bought enough photo gear to save more than $ 2,000.

This is what is happening with Adobe CS4 too. Companies and professional users might still buy CS4 at $ 1,100 tax free here in Norway. But advanced amateurs buy them overseas (NY, Abu Dabi, Canary Islands, Hong Kong etc.) for $ 600 tax free. Their alternative is buying them in Norway - included VAT, for $ 1,375. I am sure, quite a few professionals, like lone professional photographers, do also buy them overseas for $ 600.
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Old 02-21-2010   #69
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Originally Posted by wgerrard View Post
i'll grant you local shipping, i.e., from a local pressing shop, but I won't grant international shipping costs unless the finished cellophane-wrapped box is actually shipped internationally. As I said, UK buyers not so long ago were told Microsoft prices were high because they were flown in from the U.S., when, in truth, they were trucked in from Ireland.

And, as I mentioned above, Adobe offers download as a delivery option. Meaning, no shipping costs at all.

As for testing, do we know for a fact that PS is subject to a different testing regime for the European market? Is there a reason why my American copy of PS would develop problems if I moved to Europe?

Do we know exactly how different is the product sold in Europe?
Even with download, one has to consider the cost of the server farm where the files come from. There is cost of the hardware, the OS license on the servers, rent or mortgage on the building, not to mention employee costs.

True, a software based distribution system will lead to cheaper product than mailing boxes around. I'm betting iTunes makes more per song at 99 cents than when I bought a vinyl 45RPM record back in the day for $1.29 or whatever, but I thought your assumption in the message I replied ignored many of the expenses incurred by Adobe. I'd like to look at their financials, but I'm too lazy to do so. The idea that testing costs ends when CS4 is released for example, would assume that these resources aren't maybe starting work on CS5 or Elements9, or whatever the next product in the pipeline may be.

I do agree with the OP that I'd be offended if I paid more for any product than cost of product elsewhere plus applicable taxes.

As for your testing and version questions, they are good ones, but I have no idea how to answer them, except that I'm sure a US version run on a computer in France will work just fine.
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Old 02-21-2010   #70
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The prices of many software products are different all over the world but so are things like import and distribution taxes for doing business in any given country. Adobe no doubt employs people somewhere in Europe and that costs them a certain amount of money, probably more than what it does per person in the USA. There's many issues at work that determine the final price you purchase something at, it's not all Adobe being predatory and thinking they can swing one over on the Euros. But I'd take it to them and ask directly "why?" if you're a potential customer, they owe this much to you to explain it, and if it sounds like a fabrication then it probably is... move on and support someone else.

Having made my living with adobe products for some time I'll fully admit to having used pirated software of theirs for years. I was a student putting myself through school and I simply couldn't afford it even at the educational discounts... that being said I now own pretty much all of their products, with multiple user licenses and think their software is well worth the money. Once I started charging people for my output I figured it fair to pay them for theirs.
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Old 02-21-2010   #71
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A few weird comparisons going on here, but this one takes the cake. You don't see the difference between wine and software?

martin
I think the comparison goes together quite well...I know the work I do on Photoshop improves greatly after a few glasses of wine!
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Old 02-21-2010   #72
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The VAT, but also the event of internet, has changed the photo business drastically. But also the jewels, expensive watches - anything compact & expensive that can be transported easily. These products you don't buy back home here in Europe anymore. A hefty VAT is common in most European countries. In Germany 19% of the sales price is VAT. 21% in Ireland, 20% in Norway, Sweden and Finland - and so on. Most likely, USA will have to introduce some kind of VAT in the future. I see this is being discussed on Bloomberg TV and so on. Then you will see the advantages of going to tax free havens.
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Old 02-21-2010   #73
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We can drop the special language part. It is not relevant since we are talking of 'English version' only. A 'Norwegian' CS4 is so expensive that it is only relevant for Hasselblad users. We can drop the tax part. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments as to why a CS4 should cost $ 500 more in Norway than in USA.

No. We are not buying that many CS4s. Particularly not here in Norway. That could change if Adobe applied a price policy more adjusted to the international realities. - Like what Canon and Nikon have done. Adobe has a range of excellent products. Give us an oportunity to not feel like the stupid farmers we most likely are - and we just might buy the stuff.
I agree.

It is in countries like the Scandinavian countries, Ireland, Germany, Italy etc - with consumers with a high purchasing power and a relatively large community of semi pro/advanced amateurs that well could fall for a time limited campaign with favourable prices of CS4. Pro users, many of whom are willing to pay the $ 1,100 regardless, will not hop on such campaign offers. This because purchases are tied to budgets and investment decisions, an so on. While an amateur/semi pro on a consumer-like budget would certainly take the advantage of a favourable offer.
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Old 02-21-2010   #74
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One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:

1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?

2.) My film camera does not collect information about me and require data to be sent to the manufacturer to "reactivate" what I purchased. Why should I pay for an invasion of privacy?

3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.

Actually, in my view, software is much less valuable than hardware from a customer point of view, because REAL hardware should last without having to pay for updates...

Grrr.

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Old 02-21-2010   #75
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It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.
Disagree on two points. It is what the market will bare. In fact, you have it backwards. The more competition exists, the less it's about "what the market will bare" and the more it's about price equilibrium. For example, commodity items - wheat for instance. The market may "bare" twice or three times the cost per bushel. However, because it's a commodity item with lots of farmers producing wheat, supply drives every person to the same price per bushel - the farmer has "zero" influence on the price of his produce - even if the market will "bare" a higher prince.

In a monopoly - and I disagree completely that Adobe has a "monopoly" on image editing SW at all but I'll play along, they could charge $100,000 per license but they would find themselves soon out of business. What price do they charge? The highest price the market will bare.
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Old 02-21-2010   #76
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Originally Posted by JPSuisse View Post
One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:

1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?

2.) My film camera does not collect information about me and require data to be sent to the manufacturer to "reactivate" what I purchased. Why should I pay for an invasion of privacy?

3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.

Actually, in my view, software is much less valuable than hardware from a customer point of view, because REAL hardware should last without having to pay for updates...

Grrr.

JP
You do know that the only reason you need to upgrade the hardware is that software designers will eventually write some bloated code that will require you to upgrade, after it sucks up every CPU cycle you have and then some, right?

Yes, I'm sort of kiddng, but my older desktop, which ran fine when I bought it, now has trouble keeping up when both McAfee and MicroSoft go on the web to get their updates at the same time. I blame Bill Gates...
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Old 02-21-2010   #77
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I have a twenty-something nephew. As far as I know, he doesn't own a camera, but he has a pirated copy of PS on his laptop. Go figure.

The characterization of PS as a professional tool is important. Amateurs and professionals have different needs. They also have different skills and knowledge levels. If an amateur just wants to resize his images, make them look better and palatable for web posting, then PS is a whole lot of unnecessary hassle. Adobe recognized the difference between the amateur and the pro markets when they launched PSE. That's something they would not have done if "amateur" PSE posed any threat to "pro" PS.
Sure, if we try to define "what is really necessary" in our little semi pro/advanced amateur photo world we end up with a pin hole camera and Wall Mart processing. The software part of photography is just as important as the camera itself today.
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Old 02-21-2010   #78
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I'm glad you posted that. It clarifies matters. I'm especially intrigued by this:

We maintain 2.5 times as many field marketing employees in Europe as in North America to support our creative business at a certain level of quality across local markets. However, the revenue per employee is smaller, so the overall costs per unit of revenue is 4:1 in Europe compared to North America.
Sorry, but no, I don't believe that is true. As Olsen said: We can drop the language part; we talk of English versions only, we can drop the tax part [we talk of tax free prices]. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments to why a CS4 should cost 30% [actually 83% - $ 500] more than in USA. We Norwegian amateurs have to direct our technical questions, in English, to USA. So, what European field support...?
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Old 02-21-2010   #79
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Sure, if we try to define "what is really necessary" in our little semi pro/advanced amateur photo world we end up with a pin hole camera and Wall Mart processing. The software part of photography is just as important as the camera itself today.
I qualified my statement about what amateurs need. And the usefulness of pirating PS when you don't use a camera escapes me.
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Old 02-21-2010   #80
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The sales tax where I am is something like 7.5 percent. The legislature sometimes levies "temporary" increases of a fraction or so, and everyone whines and bitches. Yet, ask someone if they'd be willing to cut anything that actually impacted their lives and the answer is "no". They are quite happy to advocate cutting spending on services that benefit someone else.
No sales taxes where I live,, but they do take more in income taxes than the three surrounding states...

Many people seem to like the "free" government goodies paid for by others.

And I'm with those who say that one should use open software rather than pirate commercial products.
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