Forget Film vs. Digital; try Carbon Fiber vs. Steel!

[amateriat]

Now, I know articles like this are written largely to get people out of their seats–sort of like wearing a leather bomber jacket to a PETA rally–and banging away at the keyboard...in fact, I can't remember when this site ever had an entire piece on steel road bike frames, let alone one that held the current love-fest for carbon in question. But it did point out the occasional problems involved in choosing a bike for long-term riding as opposed to just going for the flavor-of-thee-month number on the shop rack.

I'm big on longevity...one of my bikes (my Alex Moulton AM14S) just passed its 24th year with me. Materials development have made considerable strides since I bought that bike; CF and titanium frames were available back then, but the materials were hard to work with and scary-expensive, whereas now they are refined contenders. None of this, however, changes the relationship I have with this bike. I can put forth my reasons for preferring steel (long-term reliability topping the list), but in the end it's not just the material used, but how it's used.

An interesting debate, this. And no clear-cut answer, as with a number of debates I'm familiar with.


- Barrett

[MPerson]

My "other expensive hobby" - to quote the wife. The oldest bike I have currently in use is my 30 year old Raleigh Competition with Campag parts and still going strong. It is also the only bike I have with derailleur gears as I prefer riding fixed. I remember in the early days of carbon frames the glue used to fail quite regularly and in a spectacular fashion!

I have always preferred the strength and longevity of a steel frame with beautiful lug work. Infact I have just bought a new Charge Plug Grinder fixie for a winter run about, all steel and soaks up the urban pot holes beautifully.

I'll leave carbon to the Pro's who make a living out of cycling and need the power to weight advantage.

[Dave Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by MPerson

My "other expensive hobby" - to quote the wife. The oldest bike I have currently in use is my 30 year old Raleigh Competition with Campag parts and still going strong. It is also the only bike I have with derailleur gears as I prefer riding fixed. I remember in the early days of carbon frames the glue used to fail quite regularly and in a spectacular fashion!

I have always preferred the strength and longevity of a steel frame with beautiful lug work. Infact I have just bought a new Charge Plug Grinder fixie for a winter run about, all steel and soaks up the urban pot holes beautifully.

I'll leave carbon to the Pro's who make a living out of cycling and need the power to weight advantage.

As a one-time builder of Reynolds tube frames, and thinking of making a trike - for my old age, I'll still use the rod and torch. The lug work on my old 'Hetchins' ( 'Experto Credo'and 'Magnum Opus' ) still gets admiration on their occasional outings.
Dave.

[MPerson]

Ah yes, 'tis a thing of beauty, a Curly Hetchins frame.

Dave - must be quite a feeling knowing so many of the frames you built will be giving joy and long service to riders for many years to come.

[amateriat]

Andrew: I know the benefits of a good carbon ride. I got to take little roll on a 16lb wonder, dripping with Campy. Very cool, very quick, and (rare for a CF bike, IMO) rather easy on the eyes. But I can't deal too well with the mental "ifs" in living with such a bike: what if I lay it down in a crash that's not bad enough to bang it up much, but might have compromised the frame/fork's integrity? What if some klutz knocks it off a roof rack to the ground? What if I do something stupid while I've got the thing clamped in a work stand? (Assuming it fits in the stand...my current Park stand won't work with any of the wilder designs of late.) What if I throw the chain and make a mess of the finish on the right chain stay?

My current steel go-fast ride clocks in at around 19lbs...the lightest road bike I've ever owned, a little old-school (lugged Reynolds 531C frame with classic stage-racing geometry, Shimano DA down-tube shifters) and not-quite-old-school (Shimano Ultegra 9-speed group, Ritchey OCR aero wheelset, Cane Creek 200sl brakes and SCR-5 levers). I think the thing's a rocket sled when I'm on it, and it has a tight but smooth road feel. A contemporary carbon ride might improve my "experience" a notch or two in a few areas, no doubt, but the gestalt of a great ride is already there. (And, of course, it's paid for.)

And I haven't even touched on the matter of the Moulton...


- Barrett

[Dave Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by MPerson

Ah yes, 'tis a thing of beauty, a Curly Hetchins frame.

Dave - must be quite a feeling knowing so many of the frames you built will be giving joy and long service to riders for many years to come.

I did'nt build many Andy, but in my time trialing days - I stopped about twelve years back, I was kept quite busy building wheels - everythng from radial spoking to four-cross, for tourers, and a few trikes! - the jig is still bolted to my bench!.
The problem these days - now I am retired - is no oxy-acetylene gear on hand!, for frame work, but a trike has long been on my wish list, and the axle parts, hubs etc will not be a problem as I have my own lathe and miller still. But the chances of me getting under the hour again, for a twenty five are a lot slimmer!!
Dave.

[AgentX]

Hah. It's nothing without adding suspension into the mix! Be glad you're only talking road bikes.

Mountain bikers are funny. With traditional skinny-tube road (and mountain) frames, you tend to have a real "feel of steel" compared to, say, AL or even CF. (Ti being another "feel" the sensitive derrier claims to be able to distinguish). But once you make everything massively oversized/ovalized/etc. as most MTBs are, the design is just as important as the material in determining how something feels, and most people are regurgitating marketing or outdated convention instead of discerning any real difference.

Then throw in the wheel size debates...small 24"s used to be the rage against the 26" standard...now it's big (and weak, especially with disc brakes!) 29"ers.

And then you get people riding $5500 29" Jones Space Frames. (Really want to try one of these to see if it's just the lack of money making people giddy, or if they're really that good.)

And this is just in the hardtail world. Wait until you argue suspension designs! Different shocks! Air vs. Coil/Oil! Ugh. Nowadays I just want to ride my bike.

And so I just built up a rigid singlespeed to complement my fully-suspended (but ultra-traditional as F/S bikes go) 38-lb Turner RFX...

[amateriat]

Originally Posted by AgentX

Hah. It's nothing without adding suspension into the mix! Be glad you're only talking road bikes.

Ah, but my Moulton has full f/r suspension for those 17" wheels. You should've seen the looks I got when I first rolled up for a club ride on that.

Mountain bikes? I've only owned one (a very nice Trek 850 I bought new in '84), and rode it for a year. Between hooking up with a few frame-trashing berserker friends, and some life-in-my-own-hands off-road experiences (and they still tell me I'm a nutjob for riding the street and open road), I decided sticking mostly to tarmac was the better long-term bet.


- Barrett

[AgentX]

No way, man! Road = high speed, asphalt, 21mm tires, no protection, and cars! I'm far safer on dirt riding a suspended bike with 2.5" double-ply tires, wearing gladiator armor and a full-face helmet and jumping off 3m ledges!

I like road, but it's frankly a bit dicey for me. Your friends are RIGHT.

[amateriat]

Originally Posted by AgentX

No way, man! Road = high speed, asphalt, 21mm tires, no protection, and cars! I'm far safer on dirt riding a suspended bike with 2.5" double-ply tires, wearing gladiator armor and a full-face helmet and jumping off 3m ledges!

I like road, but it's frankly a bit dicey for me. Your friends are RIGHT.

Look at it this way: to many a non-cyclist, we're both mad as a balloon.


- Barrett

[AgentX]

Truer words never spoken.

I made it to the top of the mountain and back this morning on my rigid singlespeed. Mostly paved, some potholed, a few dirt roads and ribbons of singletrack. Best ride in a long time, and I passed motorcycles on the tarmac on my way down.

J'aime les velos!

[AgentX]

OK, steel vs. carbon was one thing.

But what about maple vs. spruce??

[Trius]

Originally Posted by AgentX

OK, steel vs. carbon was one thing.

But what about maple vs. spruce??

Now THAT is bike porn! Maple and red cedar, please.

[amateriat]

Originally Posted by AgentX

OK, steel vs. carbon was one thing.

But what about maple vs. spruce??

Amazing, and gorgeous. I think I know which one Howard Hughes would've picked.

But never mind the bikes; the shoes. Have you checked out these clip-and-strap-specific custom shoes!? (Be prepared for some serious sticker-shock, however.)


- Barrett

[Seele]

Steel for me please: any fibre reinforced resin composite has a nasty habit of not showing any signs of damage when damaged, and you will only know when a catastrophic failure hits... taking you with it. As long as my Frankenbike "The Green Thingy" (Reynolds 753 frame) looks alright it will be alright... fingers crossed.

[40oz]

There is no controversy there. Anyone who thinks steel frames are inferior to carbon fiber or any other material is either ignorant or in denial (kind of.)

On another forum, a guy asked for recommendations for a starter road bike. Several people told him to look for an older used steel frame instead of the used Cannondale he was considering. The guy could not wrap his head around the fact that a steel frame would be a better choice than aluminum, and that steel frames are still being made. That kind of ignorance is apalling, and a testament to the idiocy published in "enthusiast" mags. That's where arguments about what is "better" come from - ignorance and marketing mis-information. The joker bought his Cannondale, and I'm sure he has given up road biking by now because his ass hurts lol.

Cromoly frames only for me. A carbon dirt bike would be a waste of money, material, and human flesh. I own a 20" Gary Fisher and a 24" Mongoose, and wouldn't trade them for anything. I'd like to get a clean basic road bike again, but steel for sure. If my body can take it my bike sure as hell better be able to, and I don't like the idea of riding something that fails by breaking rather than bending.

But I have to ask - how does one ride a road bike in the city and *not* hop curbs and pot holes? You can't dodge them all, and hopping them is half the fun

[AgentX]

Saying "cromo only" is just as bad as saying "carbon fiber only." And so much is in the design as much as the material.

And there have been excellent carbon fiber offroad frames. BCD bikes built custom-geometry downhill race bikes out of carbon fiber, and they were some of the toughest things out there. (Large-diameter, thick,wrap-lugged CF tubes.) Lahar out of New Zealand built some amazing CF frames as well...a little more refined-looking, even.

[Seele]

Originally Posted by 40oz

There is no controversy there. Anyone who thinks steel frames are inferior to carbon fiber or any other material is either ignorant or in denial (kind of.)

On another forum, a guy asked for recommendations for a starter road bike. Several people told him to look for an older used steel frame instead of the used Cannondale he was considering. The guy could not wrap his head around the fact that a steel frame would be a better choice than aluminum, and that steel frames are still being made. That kind of ignorance is apalling, and a testament to the idiocy published in "enthusiast" mags. That's where arguments about what is "better" come from - ignorance and marketing mis-information. The joker bought his Cannondale, and I'm sure he has given up road biking by now because his ass hurts lol.

Cromoly frames only for me. A carbon dirt bike would be a waste of money, material, and human flesh. I own a 20" Gary Fisher and a 24" Mongoose, and wouldn't trade them for anything. I'd like to get a clean basic road bike again, but steel for sure. If my body can take it my bike sure as hell better be able to, and I don't like the idea of riding something that fails by breaking rather than bending.

But I have to ask - how does one ride a road bike in the city and *not* hop curbs and pot holes? You can't dodge them all, and hopping them is half the fun

This is the same sort of ignorance that get people to keep getting new things because... nobody makes film anymore... etc.