M9 M9 M9 M9 M9

[jaapv]

This forum is really running behind times. I'll copy paste my summary of the remarks of Stefan Daniel regarding the future of the M camera:



1: There will be a future M
2. There are indications there is a solution for the IR filters, but that is still being worked on by the Leica engineers.
3. The future M will be full format
4. The future M will be announced after the production and delivery of the S2 has been implemented,"be it an M9 or M8.3" Currently the S2 is taking up resources that cannot be diverted to other projects
5. The S2 is running on time and the delivery will be as announced before, i.e September
6. The R-solution will be announced after the M camera is implemented, probably (interpretation!) not in 2010

The impression Stefan Daniel gave is that the work on the M9 is progressing well.

I think it might well be announced quite some time before the Fotokina, although that would be the natural moment to do the formal introduction.


In a later conversation I tackled Stefan on the view/rangefinder.
Leica has looked into the accuracy of the optical rangefinder as it is now, as they are obviously aware that the M8 is at the performance limit of the system, as Mark has often pointed out.
Stefan told me that tests by Leica engineers have proved that, with the different magnification factor, the classic optical finder is better on full format than on the M8.

To me that implies that the M9 will have an M7 style optical rangefinder and effectively kills all speculation on the introduction of electronic gadgetry into the system. It may even be a hint as to the form factor of the camera

[Pickett Wilson]

Well, that's a different interpretation.

It sounded to me like Leica has stopped R&D for the next year or so.

[Florian1234]

Jaap, thanks for getting this information from there. Let's see if this forum will get another more postings regarding the future digital M cameras and the other developments like over at the LUF.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by Pickett Wilson

Well, that's a different interpretation.

It sounded to me like Leica has stopped R&D for the next year or so.

Were you there? We must have met then. No, Stefan said that currently all resources were geared to pushing out the S2, and then would be diverted to getting the M series running and then after that the solution for the R would be tackled..

[Pickett Wilson]

No, not there. Just following the posts of others who were. So an M9 in 2010 then?

[aizan]

sounds good. they seem to be on schedule for the expected september 2010 release.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by Pickett Wilson

No, not there. Just following the posts of others who were. So an M9 in 2010 then?

He did not commit himself, but I would be extremely disappointed if the FK went by without the introduction of the M9, or alternatively some kind of M8.3 during the year and definite information on the M9 in October.

[Ben Z]

Good news about the going forward of the M line. Glad they are trying to work out the IR filter thing (although it would really be awful if they didn't then include firmware for cyan drift correction for those people who will still be shooting an M8 alongside the M9 and not want to have to take the IR filters off when switching a lens from one body to the other ) Also glad it will be full-frame, if for nothing more than to quell the whining

The LHSA is planning to hold their 2010 annual meeting in Weztlar in time for Photokina, so I hope to see the [new] grail in person, as I did the M8 back in '06. However that time I only waited 8 months and paid retail for a new one, but as satisfied as I am with my [upgraded] M8, this time I'll wait for a demo/refurb like I normally do with digital cameras.

I do hope the S2 is a sales success, especially if the fate of the M line (and maybe the company itself) hangs in the balance. I had a chance to hold an S2 dummy, and though it was hollow and therefore much lighter than the real thing will be, it was ergonomically very nice (unlike the R8 I used to have, which was not that wonderful unless the motor drive or DMR were attached), and even moreso when considering it's halfway to medium-format sensor size.

The S2's lenses that I handled were real, not dummies, and though I have faith that the faithful R lovers will make the paradigm shift seamlessly, the lenses do not have the same heft or feel as R lenses. The tubes are made of plastic, and these are AF lenses with full-time MF, like Canon's USM lenses, so the focus damping is very different from lubed brass MF helicoids. It's similar to comparing the Fuji-made Hasselblad H-series lenses to the C/CF-series.

[Jonas]

I heard rumors of future M at 10K$. If that is the case, I couldnt care one bit if its FF or not cause im not buying anyway. A digital M is simply not worth that kind of cash IMO. No one notices you more with a 5DmkII+35 f:2 anyway so the discrete factor of an M isnt there... I love the M cameras and lenses, dont get me wrong, but a digital M will never be worth 10K in my book.

[monochromejrnl]

Originally Posted by jaapv

Were you there? We must have met then. No, Stefan said that currently all resources were geared to pushing out the S2, and then would be diverted to getting the M series running and then after that the solution for the R would be tackled..

This seems incompatible with your assertion that the development of the M9 is going well. If all resources are being deployed to complete and deploy the S2 on schedule, then would it not be safe to conclude that the M9's development is currently on hold?

[digitalintrigue]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

Once a new product is announced, that so totally blows away the previous model, only someone who is in dire need would buy the inferior one.

Depends on the price. If the M9 is 10K then the M8 will be just fine for lots of people...

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by monochromejrnl

This seems incompatible with your assertion that the development of the M9 is going well. If all resources are being deployed to complete and deploy the S2 on schedule, then would it not be safe to conclude that the M9's development is currently on hold?

No, it is not. For instance, rangefinder specialists are not much use for the S2, and the sensor story of the S2 has been fixed months ago. The M9 is coming behind the S2 in development, and of course Leica is able to divert resources not needed any more. But they will not push to jump the queu.

[Tuolumne]

Originally Posted by Jonas

I heard rumors of future M at 10K$. If that is the case, I couldnt care one bit if its FF or not cause im not buying anyway. A digital M is simply not worth that kind of cash IMO. No one notices you more with a 5DmkII+35 f:2 anyway so the discrete factor of an M isnt there... I love the M cameras and lenses, dont get me wrong, but a digital M will never be worth 10K in my book.

This would make film Ms the way to go. Just as good quality @ 1/10th the price.

/T

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by Jonas

I heard rumors of future M at 10K$. If that is the case, I couldnt care one bit if its FF or not cause im not buying anyway. A digital M is simply not worth that kind of cash IMO. No one notices you more with a 5DmkII+35 f:2 anyway so the discrete factor of an M isnt there... I love the M cameras and lenses, dont get me wrong, but a digital M will never be worth 10K in my book.

There is NOTHING fixed on the price yet. It is quite possible that it will come in on the level of the M8.2 and the M8.2 will remain on the books at a lower price as an entry level camera. But nothing is even faintly known about that.

[Tuolumne]

Originally Posted by jaapv

No, it is not. For instance, rangefinder specialists are not much use for the S2, and the sensor story of the S2 has been fixed months ago. The M9 is coming behind the S2 in development, and of course Leica is able to divert resources not needed any more. But they will not push to jump the queu.

The S2 -- I could never figure that one out. Is there really a market for that with such a wide choice of MF digital cameras? Oh well, this is not the thread for that discussion.

/T

[tbarker13]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

Once a new product is announced, that so totally blows away the previous model, only someone who is in dire need would buy the inferior one. Leica is now under the gun to replace the M8.

Of course a lot of things have to happen for this to even be true. Simply going from a cropped frame to full frame isn't enough to "blow away" the previous model. There are plenty of pro photogs out there there using cropped sensor models by choice.

If the M8 or M8.2 can be used to create great images today, that won't change tomorrow when/if the M9 is ever introduced. A person won't have to be in dire need to buy an older model.

I prefer to think of it this way: Every new model that Leica brings to the market will push the prices further downward on older models - making them more accessible to people unable/unwilling to pay larger prices.
And that's what we need - more people using digital rangefinders.

[Ben Z]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

If this is good interpretation, and I have no reason to believe otherwise...

Once a new product is announced, that so totally blows away the previous model, only someone who is in dire need would buy the inferior one. Leica is now under the gun to replace the M8.

I guess "dire need" is open to interpretation. Photokina 2010, most likely the earliest the M9 would be released, is still 16 months off. Stefan Daniel has survived several turnovers of administration at Leica, including Steven Lee whose undoing at least in part resulted from making indiscreet statements about future product plans. If S. Daniel was so candid, I'm sure he took into consideration the potential effect on sales of the M8.2 in the interim. Perhaps it has already reached a saturation point and slowed to a crawl, what with the market for a digital M being finite, and a ready supply of new, highly-discounted M8.0's, plus demos, plus lots of slightly-used one's out there.

[Paddy C]

I suppose this is good news for some.

I would love a digital rangefinder (Zeiss do you hear me) but I can't even afford/justify the existing digital M. One can only imagine what a full-frame digital M will cost given that the M8.2 retails for $6K.

[tbarker13]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

I really doubt that statement - at least among the pros I personally know. Everyone is full frame, and why not since the prices have dropped?

And I doubt yours. So I guess we're even.

But if guess are correct, and the next Leica M sells in the $10K range, I don't think a person will have be in dire straits to opt for an M8 or M8.2 for $2k-$4k. (my range includes an estimated markdown of the M8.2 once its replacement arrives)

[tbarker13]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

As noted I base my statement on the limited number of pros I know. I do not currently know any journalists so that might skew the numbers. I do not include artists, who sometimes or alway use photography, in that mix either, since they are a quirky lot.

Gezzz I may be talking about wedding photographers, and art photographers!

I do not actually know anyone who owns an M8, other than my dealer friends, so maybe my guess does not count.

Honestly, I am primarily around photojournalists these days. And it's often a solid mix of full frame and crop sensor cameras. Particularly these days, not a lot of newspapers are in a position to be upgrading the kits used by their photogs - even if prices have been coming down.

I have to say I don't know many artists or wedding photogs.

[tbarker13]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

Does the post dispatch still actually have any photographers?

Hah. A few.

[DougFord]

The big news in these remarks is that the short register issue has been solved. Or at least close to being worked out, unless it’s just wishful thinking, a marketing ploy to keep the full frame lenses moving out the door.
Solving the short register issue and then restricting this technology to a traditional RF camera seems a bit short sighted. Why wouldn’t they develop a new, small FF hybrid camera and a set of compact AF lenses to establish a larger nich market?
Nikon and Canon have too much vested in their large FF cameras and lenses to undercut themselves with a small light weight FF hybrid.
Perhaps a company like Samsung, after the NX release, will develop a FF hybrid.
Think of a camera, slightly larger than the Oly EP1 with a FF sensor.
How many people are married to the traditional RF design?

[tbarker13]

Originally Posted by nikonhswebmaster

In the dark ages the PD had a "pictures" magazine, I had a few photos in there from time to time.

Yeah, it's pretty sad to see the loss of space for photos/ stories, etc.
Some of our photogs' best work now goes online in the form of slide shows.

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by Paddy C

I suppose this is good news for some.

I would love a digital rangefinder (Zeiss do you hear me) but I can't even afford/justify the existing digital M. One can only imagine what a full-frame digital M will cost given that the M8.2 retails for $6K.

Ummm..Zeiss is in deep enough water right now, even wihout a DRF adventure....

[jaapv]

Originally Posted by DougFord

How many people are married to the traditional RF design?

Just about 95% of their M customer base.....