What are the sources of scratches on film?

[grabuge]

Sounds kindda newbish, but I wonder, do scratches on film come from the camera itself, as the film is rolling between the rails and the pressure plate?
Or is it mostly introduced during film processing?

I wonder cause I scan my film myself (canoscan fs4000us), but I get the film developped by my photo lab, and I always end ud with lots of scratches, with the exception of slides.
That would seem to indicate that the lab is the main source of scratching, since slide film or negative film do follow the same path in the camera.
Or could it be that slide film is more scratch-resistant?

If someone is knowledgeable in that area, I'd like to hear your voice!

[jamesdak]

I've noticed the same thing. All my slides come back fine but negatives are all scratched up. Even using the same body so I really do believe it is the lab. Frustrates me to no end when I try to scan it some negatives! Yet, I can pull out negative I developed myself 10 years ago and they are still pristine, scratch and fingerprint free. I 've tried 3 different labs and they all scratch up the negatives.

[dmr]

I think I talked about this a while back.

A while ago I was SURE something in my one camera was scratching the film, cuz a couple rolls had horizontal scratches in them in about the same place. I inspected the camera and wiped off all of the film handling surfaces. No diff. At the time I usually went to Target' for everyday film processing. I then had one roll done at Wally World and no scratches! I did tell the photo manager at Target' and he seemed casually concerned. This was about the time that the one guy who worked at Target' and did a good job for me on DO-CD quit, so I started taking my everyday stuff to Wally World. I finally got them trained to do DO-CD.

[Doug]

I have seen my local lab people *drag* a roll of film across the floor from the film processor to the scanner/printer. The machinery is out in the open behind the counter, and every time the windward outside door opens dirt blows in. Senseless. Fortunately, their "home" lab in a nearby city has a climate-controlled lab, so I always ask for "pro" processing now that is done there instead of locally. Slower turnaround, but no scratches. Another solution advocated by one of our members is to just develope only... then they sleeve the neg right away and the strip is never dragged across the floor.

I've also seen the local lab folks wipe the film along its length with a rag sitting handy on the scanner before running it in for the scan. Whatever grit might be on the film or rag now turns into scratches.

Otherwise, a common spot for scratches to occur is grit in the felt light trap of the 35mm film cartridge. Very unusual for there to be a scratch-producing problem in a decent camera. For home processing, scratches can happen using an unclean squeegee when hanging the film to dry. That reminds me of my very first rolls of film, developed in the airbase's photo lab that was left open after hours for us amateurs to use. Film was hung to dry in the open, with people coming and going. I'd come back later and take my dry film down, roll it up, cinch it tight, and put it in the film can it came in for safe storage. All scratched!

[grabuge]

Thanks for your comments guys!
I do dev only too, and still get scratches...
Anyways, today, it's 2.15 in the morning and I just finished to develop my first 2 rolls of films ever in my life! Woohoo! TMax 100 +Tmax developper.
Tomorrow morning I'll do a scan to see how things went.

About an hour after I bought the tmax dev, I read this post on this site talking about diafine dev and how easy it is...
I guess I'll just have to pay the price of newbieness

[bmattock]

I need to find a way to make this a permanent post...

My solution has been to ask the one-hour labs to develop only, no printing, no scanning. Cut and sleeve the negs. First, it costs about two bucks per roll, very cheap. Second, no (or very few) scratches. I scan my negs when I get them home. If you shoot a lot of film, the cost savings over not having prints made or scanning done will more than justify the price of a good film scanner and the quality there is MUCH better anyway, scratches aside.

As to B&W self-processed scratches, I use Kodak Rapid Fix which has a hardening agent. I squeegee between my wet fingers and use Photo-Flo to cut down on spotting. My B&W negs are pretty much scratch free.

Long horizontal scratches that persist in one spot from frame to frame and roll to roll are most likely made in your camera - but if they are absent in slides, then no, not the camera doing it.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

[thpook]

Some older cameras (like my Agfa Billy) have rollers in the film path. Sometimes there can be corrosion on them that can cause scratches.

Other causes:
Film squeegee with deteriorated blades.
Dirt/Grit in the canisters light trap.
Careless handling.
Dirt/grit/metal pitting in the film path.
Dirt/grit in the leader area of the processing machine.
Dirt/grit on the film carrier on the printer.

I used to work at a photo lab, (a job I got to support my film habit as I got a steep discount and free developing) and was one of the few people who conscientiously cleaned the problem areas and wore cotton gloves. The sad thing is, most people care when they begin, but after hearing "Yes, I took those photos in the late afternoon, but that color cast shouldn't be there I own one of the best cameras you can buy!!" 5-6 times a lot of people just start making up plausible stuff to get the customer off their backs. That's when people stop caring, and stop doing necessary things like cleaning the machines and replenishing the chemistry.

[varjag]

Some films have softer emulsions than others and tend to develop scratches more. It can be scratched by cassete lead, film path in the camera, plastic storage sleeve, but I would agree that the lab is the most likely cause.

Procedure requires film processor operators to clean the film track rolls every morning from the crystals that condense out of warm chemistry vapors overnight, but it is often neglected in practice. Use a lab that cares, process film yourself, or at least don't submit your film for processing at early morning.

[berci]

Sometimes (always?!) in smaller labs they dont change the rollers in the machine when they should be changed and that can cause scratches. My method is to test the lab with a dummy roll and if it's scratched then don't go back them again.

[oftheherd]

Originally Posted by thpook

Some older cameras (like my Agfa Billy) have rollers in the film path. Sometimes there can be corrosion on them that can cause scratches.

Other causes:
Film squeegee with deteriorated blades.
Dirt/Grit in the canisters light trap.
Careless handling.
Dirt/grit/metal pitting in the film path.
Dirt/grit in the leader area of the processing machine.
Dirt/grit on the film carrier on the printer.

I used to work at a photo lab, (a job I got to support my film habit as I got a steep discount and free developing) and was one of the few people who conscientiously cleaned the problem areas and wore cotton gloves. The sad thing is, most people care when they begin, but after hearing "Yes, I took those photos in the late afternoon, but that color cast shouldn't be there I own one of the best cameras you can buy!!" 5-6 times a lot of people just start making up plausible stuff to get the customer off their backs. That's when people stop caring, and stop doing necessary things like cleaning the machines and replenishing the chemistry.

The last time I went to Wally World, their chemistry was off badly, and produced some of the worst staining you can imagine. It had been a test roll so I wasn't really worried about the photos much, but wanted to get them back on track. I went there and showed the negatives to the pimply-faced kid there, saying I just wanted them to know and that the word should be passed around to watch more carefully. Should have know better. He immediately began telling me all the things that could have caused the problem, except for them, of course, stressing that it was probably my camera. Like I said, I should have known better. I didn't give him too hard a time as I expect he was only saying what he had been told to say. But, I am afraid I did leave him feeling less secure about spouting off things he knew nothing about.

It's just that sort of thing bugs me. At least he could have sounded sympathetic when he lied.

[James Burton]

Keep in mind that (for scans at least) scratches & dust on slides are harder to see. On negatives they will show up white, on positives they will show up black.

James

[jim0266]

Scratches on my C-41 film drive me crazy. like another poster i can pull out B&W negs I developed 15 years ago and they are still virtually flawless and need minimal cloning to eliminate dust spots.

Years ago when I worked at a newspaper and we shot C-41 that was developed in the Wing-Lynch we never had problems with scratches since nothing touched the film. It's these roller transport systems that are not maintained well that cause the scratches.

Like a poster above I just have my film processed only and then scan the ones I want at home. I have have good instances of using one-hour labs but it's been hit or miss. One day I spoke with the guy who maintains the machine at my local Ritz photo and he's pretty anal about keeping the machine cleaned and maintained. I was trying to find out if there is one particular day of the week that might be statistically better at getting clean negs -- perhaps if there is one day a week and cleans the machine.

I tried a "pro" lab out of state that claimed to do dip and dunk processing. Their film came back as bad as some from the worst of the one-hour labs.

[nrb]

Scratches are exclusive to color negatives processed in c41 chemistry.
In my experience scratches never show on home developed b&w or cross processed color negatives.
Generally slides do not show scratches, unless developed at a certain specific local lab...

[RayPA]

Originally Posted by bmattock

I need to find a way to make this a permanent post...

My solution has been to ask the one-hour labs to develop only, no printing, no scanning. Cut and sleeve the negs. First, it costs about two bucks per roll, very cheap. Second, no (or very few) scratches. I scan my negs when I get them home. If you shoot a lot of film, the cost savings over not having prints made or scanning done will more than justify the price of a good film scanner and the quality there is MUCH better anyway, scratches aside.

...


Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

I do the same thing. I revisited some negs that I had processed, printed and scanned by a local one-hour, and they were scratched. Afer acquiring a decent scanner and ICE, I started requesting develop only. I don't even ask them to cut my negs. So, now it's "Develop only, no cut, please" The personnel at the lab LOVE IT. I get them in the long uncut sleeve. It's a couple of bucks for the service.

.

[RJBender]

Originally Posted by oftheherd

The last time I went to Wally World, their chemistry was off badly, and produced some of the worst staining you can imagine. It had been a test roll so I wasn't really worried about the photos much, but wanted to get them back on track. I went there and showed the negatives to the pimply-faced kid there, saying I just wanted them to know and that the word should be passed around to watch more carefully. Should have know better. He immediately began telling me all the things that could have caused the problem, except for them, of course, stressing that it was probably my camera. Like I said, I should have known better. I didn't give him too hard a time as I expect he was only saying what he had been told to say. But, I am afraid I did leave him feeling less secure about spouting off things he knew nothing about.

It's just that sort of thing bugs me. At least he could have sounded sympathetic when he lied.

The Sam's Club around here is better than Walmart. The 2 day service by their outside lab is better than both store's one hour lab. A few years ago, the one hour service was great at both stores.

I've had scratches and fingerprints on my negatives from both labs. One of these days I'm going to dupe some slides from a trip on color negative film, take the film to the lab when they first open and call for the manager after I go back to pick up my scratched negatives.

If I make a scene and rant for 15 minutes, maybe the store manager will stay on top of the lab personnel ... for a week or two.



R.J.

[MelanieC]

Keep in mind that (for scans at least) scratches & dust on slides are harder to see. On negatives they will show up white, on positives they will show up black.

Are you referring to slides only, or b/w film negatives? On the first roll I developed at home, some of the negs I scanned had what I thought were scratches on them, or dust. I figured I was careless somehow. Can anyone interpret the white marks on this? At first I thought "dog hair," but the marks are way too small. Dust?

[jim0266]

It's some form of dust/hair or somthing clinging to the film. It's not a scratch.

[amateriat]

Barring any in-camera issues (gritty pressure plate or film-cassette felt light trap), one likely reason you see fewer scratches/grit/etc. on slide film than color neg is that most slide film is run through dip/dunk processors these days (which is why most small labs send out your slide film to another, larger lab), while most color negative film is (1) run through higher-physical-contact roller-transport machines, which are (2) usually run by operators who may not be on-the-ball about proper machine inspection and maintenance (and not paid well enough to know or care).

Lately, I've taken some of my gotta-have-it-now C41 film to the corner Rite-Aid, of all places, and have actually gotten good results; I just have them soup the film, then spool the uncut roll up and put it straight into the bag. Turnaround is ususally 30 minutes or so, and for about $2.50 a pop. And, even though my scanner has Digital ICE to handle most any assorted scratches and such, I much prefer the scanner have less to deal with (as well as just preferring negs handled the right way).


- Barrett

[sf]

pressure plates do it.

So do dirty rollers at the lab, if you have stuff processed at a lab. Or just clumsy handling.

[dnk512]

To test your side of the equation (5 minutes or less -- NO development):: Put a dummy roll in it. Shoot a few frames, rewind just a bit. Remove from the camera. Check the film on the outside of the canister and a few inches from the inside. Look with a magnifing glass with the light at an angle. Then compare to the rest of the film in the canister. Check both sides of the film.

If there are scratches on your end: Shoot some of the rest of the roll but do not rewind. Open the camera, mark on the film its position with respect to the body and inspect again. Look for where the scratches stop and work from your markings to find the exact location of the cause. If rewinding is what causes the scratches, then inspect the felt on the cannister.

From the dozens of film cameras I have used, old and new, only one sctratched my film. A very old but in mind condition Autocord. Perhaps that is why it was still mint! The firt stainless roller was rough. Easy fix.

[dnk512]

Melanie, I have seen odd looking scratches like the lines in your image on film that was left on a hard surface and then a book or folder was thrown on it :-(

[RJBender]

Originally Posted by MelanieC

Keep in mind that (for scans at least) scratches & dust on slides are harder to see. On negatives they will show up white, on positives they will show up black.

Are you referring to slides only, or b/w film negatives? On the first roll I developed at home, some of the negs I scanned had what I thought were scratches on them, or dust. I figured I was careless somehow. Can anyone interpret the white marks on this? At first I thought "dog hair," but the marks are way too small. Dust?

Was it cold outside when you took that photo and did you rewind or advance your film quickly? If so, the marks could be from static electricity.

R.J.