Been there, done that

[Roger Hicks]

I am increasingly uncertain of the value of my advice, from the viewpoint of nearly 59, to someone who is 39 or 29 or worse still 19. Yes, I've owned more Leicas than I can remember; but what I need, want or can afford today may differ widely from what is best for someone younger.

Yes, some people think exactly alike. Today I finished the first draft of a novel, co-written with a friend who is exactly 40 years younger (1950/1990). Either we think identically, or telepathy is involved. But even then, there's a lot we don't have in common.

I own my own house, and I got my driving license and lost my virginity some decades ago. Hell, I got my LL.B. well over 30 years ago. I've been married twice (the second time worked). I can afford the occasional new Leica or lens.

She's been with her boyfriend 9 weeks, can't drive a car (not legally, though she's pretty good with a Land Rover in a field), and she is going to university in September. We're as close as two people can be, born exactly 40 years apart, and precisely because are so close, I am all the more aware of how distant I am from other young people (not necessarily that young).

So when I say, "Buy an MP if you can afford it," how much is that worth to younger and/or poorer people?

EDIT: Post 52 in this thread will (I hope) clarify the original point, which is to question the value of any 'what should I buy' advice.

Tashi delek,

R.

[FPjohn]

Mr. Hicks:

Your contributions are always cogent.

yours
FPJ

[Brian Sweeney]

I am surprised by how many of the younger generation (under 30) value and use the cameras that I grew up with and value so.

Some of the "younger generation" that I've known recently received Leica film cameras as college graduation gifts, and others that knew them were a bit jealous.

I've been giving away some cameras and accessories of late. Here is the reply from one recipient.

"I just received the camera about 10 minutes ago. I'm freaking out because I'm so happy, thank you so much! It's absolutely stunning =]"

I think she liked it. I bought it over 25 years ago, and gave it away when this person posted that her "Ebay Find" was not working.

[Roger Hicks]

Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney

I am surprised by how many of the younger generation (under 30) value and use the cameras that I grew up with and value so.

Some of the "younger generation" that I've known recently received Leica film cameras as college graduation gifts, and others that knew them were a bit jealous.

I've been giving away some cameras and accessories of late. Here is the reply from one recipient.

"I just received the camera about 10 minutes ago. I'm freaking out because I'm so happy, thank you so much! It's absolutely stunning =]"

I think she liked it. I bought it over 25 years ago, and gave it away when this person posted that her "Ebay Find" was not working.

Dear Brian,

A heartening story. I guess those are the people who think the way we do. And if we can't encourage the people who think the way we do, who can we encourage?

Tashi delek,

R.

[MickH]

"Been there, done that"

While us old(er) 'uns feel we may be holders of all manner of valuable hints and tips for the youngsters I think we should be very selective when we drop our pearls of wisdom. Personally, unless my advice is asked for on a specific subject, or if I can see real disaster looming for someone, I try to keep my trap shut.

Let them go there, do it and learn through personal experience.

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Roger,

The idea of ever being able to buy an MP is such an impossible dream that I can't even consider it. That camera with one lens costs more that I earn in a year. For MANY, MANY young men of my generation that is the life we're stuck with, having been born to lower-class families in the USA, where wealth and connections are increasingly required to even get a job that pays anything approaching a living wage. I can't even tell you how many university educated people of my generation have never found jobs of any kind after graduation, their talents and education completely wasted. Those who do find work often make $7 an hour at Starbucks or Pizza Hut because that's all they can find. I persisted in photography despite nearly starving a couple of times and being homeless once because I in too poor of health to stock shelves or be on my feet all day waiting tables. (My problems could probably be fixed if doctors would see me, but without insurance they won't treat me).

So, yeah, advice to young people to buy an MP is really worthless, it simply is beyond any realm of possibility aside from those few smart enough to have chosen wealthy parents before birth. We all know the poor are scum who deserve it because they weren't smart enough or hard working enough, right? That's what they say here in Indiana.

[Leigh Youdale]

So, the word "afford" three times makes Roger 'too hung up on money"? - and so some people can't afford a new Leica MP, some can only afford an older model and many others make do with whatever they can afford and don't bleat about it.
Come one guys, give us a break!
Just go out and shoot photographs and leave the philosophising.

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Richard Jenkinson

Roger,
You are too hung up on money.
The number of times you say "afford it", either in the first or second or third person is staggering.

I normally (almost) never hear this word in everyday speech.

(And I have been there, and done that.)

gee richard, got an axe to grind?

bob

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

So, yeah, advice to young people to buy an MP is really worthless, it simply is beyond any realm of possibility aside from those few smart enough to have chosen wealthy parents before birth. We all know the poor are scum who deserve it because they weren't smart enough or hard working enough, right? That's what they say here in Indiana.

if you listen to stupid people that tell you that you're scum, you'll stay poor.


bob

[Dave Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Leigh Youdale

So, the word "afford" three times makes Roger 'too hung up on money"? - and so some people can't afford a new Leica MP, some can only afford an older model and many others make do with whatever they can afford and don't bleat about it.
Come one guys, give us a break!
Just go out and shoot photographs and leave the philosophising.

Exactly! - and all this nonsense about encouraging youngsters to have MP's etc.!....cut the allowance!, a good thrashing every week, then two years in the army, is whats needed to bring 'em in line!
Dave.

[JohnTF]

The opportunities to acquire necessary equipment to do good work have never been greater, nor more affordable.

It is a good thing, and if one can afford what they "want" then, by all means, indulge yourself.

That said, I might, if physically able, prod almost anyone here out in the world with a good working $50 OM1 and a few rolls of film, and they would not exactly sally forth unable to capture an interesting image that presented itself.

Well, maybe it would take a $50 Nikon SLR. Both are readily available almost anywhere. I have seen an N90s with lens sell for that.

The MP would work as well.

Photography is a movable feast now more than ever.

It may be harder to discover what you really want, Roger I get the feeling you have figured out what you want?

Regards, John

[Ducky]

Boy, did this get sidetracked quickly.
Roger, when I wanted to know about large format, I bought your book (maybe I should have checked the free library first). And when I see a post from you I read it. I'm older than you by 15 years but still value your opinion.
Any one who asks another person if they should buy this or that, probably should not buy anything until they can confidently make up their own mind.
That's my advice, from an old man.

[back alley]

i believe that age is irrelevant.
advice is given and received and either acted upon or not but after i have given it then my part and the responsibility contained within is over.
you choose your future, not me.

joe

[FrozenInTime]

Choosing the best of something is easy - being contented with something that's adequate is more difficult, but it seems to be even more difficult these days.
I worked many weekends in a camera store while at university to eventually by a second hand M2 and 35'cron. During this time the store sold at best a M6 per two months - it was a big event when one was sold. The thought of owning a M6 myself never even entered my head.

Today, the newcomer could read these forums and be persuaded the MP was the only choice because of all the flaws in prior models.
In reality the incremental improvements between models are really minor.
There was a thread yesterday "Newbie Advice - Survival tips" which contained the worst advice that a newcomer could possibly follow - it was written from an elitist rather than a users viewpoint ( fortunately the thread was quickly deleted ).

I would not say "Buy an MP if you can afford it," but:
Buy the MP only once you have gained the practical hands on experience to know what difference it will make to your photography compared to a less refined/older/cheaper body
... and then if you can afford it.

The same would go for lenses: If you go to a gallery or show with real silver prints from HCB or Salgado - they just look amazing - and none were taken with those latest must have ASPH lenses.

[ferider]

Dear Roger,

allow me to look at it from the reverse perspective:

RFF has more than 23000 members: 75% are older than 30, and 50% are older than 40 (see recent poll). Most of us are male. Most of us do photography as a hobby. The hobby centers around "weird" cameras, some of them expensive, some of them cheap, some old, some recent. Clearly, though, the average professional photographer out there will use (professionally) different equipment than most of what we are discussing here. Not a very charming overview, but true.

There is a huge variety of members, including members that can afford an MP, members that can not afford an MP, and members that can afford an MP but would never buy one. A bit like the average "Wild Hog" that could afford a Hayabuza (arguably, technically the most advanced street bike), but buys an even more expensive Harley including technologies from the 50s. I am assuming that the average male above 30, who has time to use RFF, either does so out of boredom, as a distraction, or out of luxury. He certainly has had some significant life experience. Note that I am just talking statistics here, I very much value the female, the young, the professional members, and very good amateur photographers of course.

So, when this average RFF member is recommended "Buy the best Leica ever, an MP, if you can afford it", he might hear "You don't have an MP, the best Leica ever, because you cann't afford it". Which would be offensive.

Roger, I personally have learned a lot from you in terms of photographic technique, etc. And I would miss your educational tips, stories, and other contributions very much. But I wish the association of gear vs. price vs. perceived monetary value would somehow become less important at RFF.

Sincerely,

Roland.

[Brian Sweeney]

Afford it? In ate Peanut Butter for a couple of months so that I could afford a brand new Nikon F2a with couple of lenses when I was earning my way through school. I graduated without owing any student loans, and paid my own tuition.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have gone for a used Leica M3. But I still have the F2a. It's thirty years old now. Works Great.

[Solinar]

My advice to young folks is to go digital - which is do as I say rather than as I do - mainly because I invested in film technology many years ago that still works for me. Starting from scratch today would be a different story.

Put me in the hobbyist group.

[noimmunity]

Originally Posted by ferider

I wish the association of gear vs. price vs. perceived monetary value would somehow become less important at RFF.

I'll second that!

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Richard Jenkinson

No axe to grind bob. You seem to be missing the point, as is Roger.

i was pointing out what seems like nit-picking to me.

bob

[JohnTF]

Originally Posted by Brian Sweeney

Afford it? In ate Peanut Butter for a couple of months so that I could afford a brand new Nikon F2a with couple of lenses when I was earning my way through school. I graduated without owing any student loans, and paid my own tuition.

If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have gone for a used Leica M3. But I still have the F2a. It's thirty years old now. Works Great.

One of the best, truly could see the difference in the prints.

I remained living at home and paid it off over a few months. ;-)
Had the lenses converted to AI and still have them.

Regards, John

[charjohncarter]

The biggest kick I get these days is when I'm out using a 'vintage camera' and some youngster (19 to 39) comes up and genuinely is interested in the camera. Sometimes they say, 'why do you use it?' and I just say 'I like it.' Sometimes a follow up, 'why do you use film?' I just say, 'I like it.' This could be the start of something great, don't do, own or think anything unless you can say, 'I just like it.'

[bob338]

Originally Posted by Richard Jenkinson

So what's your contribution to the debate?

i disagree that roger's recommendation to buy an MP is useless. there are people who will be able to buy one at some point and maybe his recommendation gives them the drive to work a little harder for it.

if everyone kept to themself and didn't share their opinions on these very expensive toys/tools, we'd be left with what we had 20 years ago: articles in magazines that are supported by the companies they are reviewing.

bob

[Steve Bellayr]

People don't ask for advice they ask for confirmation of their opinions.

[literiter]

Roger,

When I was just 21 I knew everything there was to know about photography, more than that even. It had much to do with me being 21, and me being me, I suspect.

Now I'm even older than you and beside me on my shelves is a book I treasure, and I suspect I'd have treasured if I were 21 again. Its called "The Black and White Handbook".

I loaned this to a young fellow a few years back, and he finally returned it to me last week. He responded to the book by keeping it for a year or so and buying a film camera.

You are doing all right Roger....keep at it.

[MIkhail]

HCB was from a rich family so he could afford to buy Leica and shoot with it. So did Robert Capa.
Toni Vicaro could not afford Leica and he was shooting pictures with Argus C3 (or whatever that brick is called), but he was still shooting and created possibly the best war pictures ever...
Perhaps your young friend should think about this, rather than dreaming of buying a top notch equipment first and then dedicating life to photography... :-)

P.S.
That said, I sometimes read the discussions on this site and can't help but wondering: who are these people?!
I am pretty highly paid engineer at Ford Motor Co, my wife is very highly paid accountant, our family income is a lot higher than average, yet I cannot even think of the prices and equipment you guys are operating here in daily conversations... I am not saying this to judge anybody, good for you, I am just expressing an observation.