Go Back   Rangefinderforum.com > Cameras / Gear / Photography > Being a Photographer > Technique: How To Shoot It

Technique: How To Shoot It Ask questions about how to take pics, as well as share your own favorite shooting tips.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

holding for verticals
Old 05-05-2009   #1
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
 
payasam's Avatar
 
payasam is offline
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delhi, India
Age: 65
Posts: 4,430
holding for verticals

Even people no longer young can change: old woofer, new tricks. I had all along taken vertical frames with camera rotated either clockwise or anti-clockwise. In the few years for which I used a IIIc and a Zorki, each with accessory finder, I took to looking through the finder with my left eye rather than my right, which is dominant, camera rotated anti-clockwise and pressed against forehead and nose. Now I do the same with my M2, the only difference being that the camera is held slightly higher as the finder eyepiece is at one end. I have an impression of improved steadiness. Does anyone else do this or something like it? Do others have other tricks?
__________________
"Payasam" means a sloppy pudding. Little kids love it, and I'm a little kid with a big grey beard and diabetes.
Olympus E-3, Sony A7; Nikon FE; four Zuiko Digital lenses; Sony FE 28-70 zoom; Nikkor 35/2, Nikkor 50/1.4, Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8, Nikkor 85/2, Nikkor 105/2.5
RFF gallery
Flickr gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #2
nome_alice
Registered User
 
nome_alice's Avatar
 
nome_alice is offline
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 147
i do that too, with shutter button at the bottom rather than up the top. mostly because i'm heavily left eyed though. i much prefer it this way as i can keep my arms in at my sides instead of having to stick a chicken wing out.

actually, i just visualised your technique again, and no, i don't do that same as you. you're weird
__________________


i hardly know her


Last edited by nome_alice : 05-05-2009 at 22:19. Reason: brain caught the dumb
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #3
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 56
Posts: 7,930
payasam, I will have try your technique. On the topic of teaching old woofers to roll over and such: after 49 yrs, 25 of them spent looking through the "wrong" eye (my dominant left eye) with my nose squished against the back of my M4 and M6, I finally determined to "teach" myself a new trick when I got an M8. I was annoyed with constant nose print on the camera back, so I relearned my shooting style. Easier than I expected. My large proboscis never provided any extra steadiness.

Totally off topic: my wife is pestering me to shave my beard. Please offer me three reasons I can provide to convince her otherwise.

Right eye vertical:


And, the reason for the beard question:


Both shot w/ J3 wide open.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #4
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 56
Posts: 7,930
Let's try those image links again:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3629/...377625.jpg?v=0

and

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3614/...ca3f5d.jpg?v=0
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #5
hans voralberg
Registered User
 
hans voralberg's Avatar
 
hans voralberg is offline
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK & Hochiminh, Vietnam
Posts: 2,047
A bit off-topic but I have to agree with your wife :P

On-topic: I find holding vertical with the shutter @ bottom more comfortable.
__________________
Bodies: Leica IIIf - Leica M3 SS - M6 Black TTL - M9

Lens: Too many to list!

My Flickr

  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #6
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
 
nikon_sam's Avatar
 
nikon_sam is offline
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alta Loma, CA
Age: 55
Posts: 4,478
Shutter button up...shooting with left eye...
I was just trying my right eye with the button downward...sorry it doesn't feel right...I can't do it...
__________________
Sam
"tongue tied & twisted
just an earthbound misfit...I..."
pf
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #7
laptoprob
back to basics
 
laptoprob's Avatar
 
laptoprob is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: the original Haarlem
Age: 49
Posts: 1,552
With the R-D1, the shutter button should be held upwards because of the meter ' hotspot'. I am not used to that, always held cameras button down and finder up. I don't like and am not used to holding the right arm over my head for button-up-verticals.
__________________
groeten, Rob.

You live and learn. At any rate, you live. Douglas Adams







Architecture and Photography
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #8
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
 
payasam's Avatar
 
payasam is offline
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delhi, India
Age: 65
Posts: 4,430
Dunno if I'm weird, nome_alice, but that's the way I do it. I'll grant that firing the shutter with the right thumb allows one to keep the elbows in. I used to do it -- and, for reasons not specified, hans finds it more comfortable. It is odd and not so logical, Rob, but strangely enough it works. Robk, your second picture makes me dizzy. That's without doubt a beard, I'll say. Your wife clearly does not know that conjugal facial hair, when applied correctly, makes the skin glow by keeping its pores clean and gently massaging it.
__________________
"Payasam" means a sloppy pudding. Little kids love it, and I'm a little kid with a big grey beard and diabetes.
Olympus E-3, Sony A7; Nikon FE; four Zuiko Digital lenses; Sony FE 28-70 zoom; Nikkor 35/2, Nikkor 50/1.4, Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8, Nikkor 85/2, Nikkor 105/2.5
RFF gallery
Flickr gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #9
Drewus
Registered User
 
Drewus is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 93
Right eye, shutter button down, nose squished against back of camera. Get far better stability because my arms are tucked in.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #10
mcgrattan
-
 
mcgrattan is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 287
Normally: left-eye, shutter button down.

I'm left eye dominant so I always shoot that way. Generally shutter down because I am right-handed and that just feels easier, with the shutter release facing right.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-05-2009   #11
gudlagoba
Registered User
 
gudlagoba is offline
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 91
Shutter button to the top and right eye. Just like you do, Mukul. I have never done it any other way.
__________________
----------------------
my gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #12
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
 
payasam's Avatar
 
payasam is offline
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delhi, India
Age: 65
Posts: 4,430
My new trick is shutter button to the top and left eye to the finder, gudlagoba. It will of course feel unfamiliar to you, but you might come to like it. It can also be called Using One's Head.
__________________
"Payasam" means a sloppy pudding. Little kids love it, and I'm a little kid with a big grey beard and diabetes.
Olympus E-3, Sony A7; Nikon FE; four Zuiko Digital lenses; Sony FE 28-70 zoom; Nikkor 35/2, Nikkor 50/1.4, Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8, Nikkor 85/2, Nikkor 105/2.5
RFF gallery
Flickr gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #13
petebown
Registered User
 
petebown's Avatar
 
petebown is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fairford, Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 134
I usually turn the camera clockwise and shoot with the shutter button at the bottom. This could be because my right eye is dominant. However, I prefer to keep my right elbow tucked into ribs as this helps to reduce camera shake.
I think I may have taken some shots rotating the camera the other way but it just feels all wrong.
For me, it's the same for rangefinders and SLR cameras.
__________________
Voigtlander Bessa R2A, CV lenses: 25/4, 35/1.7, 50/2.5, 1936 Leica 9cm/f4 Elmar
Leica R7, 35-70/4 Vario ROM, 90/2.8 Elmarit, 180/3.4 Apo-Telyt-R
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #14
Keith
On leave from Gallifrey
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Keith is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,101
My Bronica RF645 is a tricky one. The camera's natural orientation is portrait and when shooting landscape I have yet to decide on top shutter or bottom shutter acuation. Top shutter feels a little weird because it's quite a large camera and your hand is way up in the air ... bottom shutter is a little arkward because I like to use my thumb but the shutter button is a long way to the front of the camera and is not in the natural position for my thumb!
__________________
---------------------------
flickr
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #15
ferider
Registered User
 
ferider's Avatar
 
ferider is offline
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10,858
Shutter button up, right eye for me.

I try occasionally shutter button down, but always end up covering the 2nd RF window somehow.

One trick for improved steadyness both in portrait or landscape mode that works for me is
to pull on the (short) neck-strap and have my neck help me steady the camera if that makes
sense to anyone ....

Cheers,

Roland.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #16
Al Kaplan
Registered User
 
Al Kaplan is offline
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Miami, FL
Age: 73
Posts: 4,478
Mukul! Who says that we're "old woofers"?

It might well be giving you improved steadiness. I have deep set eyes and a prominant brow ridge (my Neanderthal genes showing?) and use my right hand to hold the camera, thumb under the wind lever, index finger on the release, and the other three fingers pressing the camera body against my palm. The fingers on left hand usually curved but palm down with the weight of the camera resting on the knuckles and backs of the fingers unless I'm shooting a long lens. I rarely actually grip the camera with my left hand. For years I did a lot of flash photography, holding the flash off camera in my left hand. I still use a bit of bounce flash on ocasion. I guess that's how I got in the habit of the one hand hold. It's pretty much the same whether vertical or horizontal.

I've never felt comfortable shooting an SLR like that, probably because the eyepiece is in the center.

I've heard that some photographers prefer useing their "other" eye because it lets them concentrate on overall composition. The master eye seems to get hung up on looking at the details. The other eye is mostly used just for depth perception, making the world look 3-D, but the way it's connected to your brain seems a lot different. Ever try reading with your left eye? It's doable but it isn't all that easy! Even peoples' faces can be difficult to recognize.

For the past three or four years I've done most of my shooting with just my right hand holding the camera "way out there" at arm's length and pointing back at an angle to include me in the frame. Equipped with the 15mm Heliar it gets in a lot of background too. The posing and facial expressions, hairstyle, the wardrobe I pick, all pure acting...

After awhile you become adept at winding and releasing the shutter while holding the camera out there, an 1/15 of a second doesn't scare me and I can usually pull off 1/8 no problem. Longer than that and I try to brace my hand against a wall.

One thing I haven't been able to do is compose the shots as verticals shot "blind" with any certainty. I've about given up trying. Back when I was trying I was releasing the shutter with my thumb.

http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com has a bunch of these shots. In a few of them you can see my reflection in a window, or shadow on the ground.
__________________
RIP

My Gallery

Last edited by Al Kaplan : 05-06-2009 at 05:51.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #17
Richard G
Registered User
 
Richard G's Avatar
 
Richard G is offline
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: 37,47 S
Posts: 4,059
I am heavily left eye dominant and some years ago, cannot remember when, taught myself to use the right eye. Maybe it was when I got a 35mm lens and needed to get closer to the viewfinder and managed surprisingly well. I now don't feel at all comfortable looking with the left when the camera is horizontal. I have always rotated clockwise for vertical and shot with the left eye and the shutter button down. I think having the hands lower allows for less tremor, but I can see the merits of up and the camera plastered to the forehead and I have occasionally done this for a very slow shot. Usually below 1/30 I have more confidence horizontal and try to avoid vertical altogether.
__________________
Richard
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #18
MRohlfing
Registered User
 
MRohlfing's Avatar
 
MRohlfing is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wien, Austria
Age: 62
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by laptoprob View Post
With the R-D1, the shutter button should be held upwards because of the meter ' hotspot'.
Applies to the Bessa and Zeiss Ikon, too.

I prefer shutter button down, though, with most of my cameras.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #19
Pickett Wilson
Registered User
 
Pickett Wilson's Avatar
 
Pickett Wilson is offline
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,855
Shutter button up. I aways shoot with my left eye, so this just feels more natural.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #20
Larky
Registered User
 
Larky is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 515
Shutter button up, shoot with right eye. I can do both, but naturally do it this way because I like to have my chicken wing out.
__________________
My Flickr
My Blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #21
benlee
Registered User
 
benlee is offline
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 5
this is interesting, i always thought i was different for shooting with the shutter button down. but it seems like most left eyed, right handed shooters do that.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #22
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 56
Posts: 7,930
Help! Which window I am supposed look through? I don't know where my eye goes.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3571/...20dc26.jpg?v=0
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #23
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
 
shadowfox's Avatar
 
shadowfox is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,820
Shutter button up, left eye dominant. It's easy for me, my nose has low altitude
__________________
Have a good light,
Will


  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #24
newspaperguy
Registered User
 
newspaperguy's Avatar
 
newspaperguy is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern Maryland US of A
Age: 84
Posts: 1,382
Shutter button up,

BOTH eyes open,

right eye on finder.

Was it good for you?
__________________
Rick Beckrich

My five -star rated children's book,

"The Little Crow Who Could Not CAW"

is now available for Kindle and other readers.

This semi-animated version of the hardbound edition
may be just perfect for your favorite 4-to-8 year old,

Available from Amazon.com, of course.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #25
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 56
Posts: 7,930
where do I put my eye?

<img>http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3571/3507136285_50b320dc26.jpg?v=0</img>
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #27
robklurfield
eclipse
 
robklurfield's Avatar
 
robklurfield is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Age: 56
Posts: 7,930
where does my eye go?


  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2009   #28
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
 
payasam's Avatar
 
payasam is offline
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delhi, India
Age: 65
Posts: 4,430
Rob, I don't understand this "hot spot" business. If the metering pattern is bottom-centre-weighted (camera held horizontal), then for vertical shots you'll have to meter before you finally frame and shoot, yes?

Rick, most people find the image in the non-finder eye distracting and keep that eye closed.
__________________
"Payasam" means a sloppy pudding. Little kids love it, and I'm a little kid with a big grey beard and diabetes.
Olympus E-3, Sony A7; Nikon FE; four Zuiko Digital lenses; Sony FE 28-70 zoom; Nikkor 35/2, Nikkor 50/1.4, Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8, Nikkor 85/2, Nikkor 105/2.5
RFF gallery
Flickr gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2009   #29
MRohlfing
Registered User
 
MRohlfing's Avatar
 
MRohlfing is offline
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Wien, Austria
Age: 62
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by payasam View Post
Rob, I don't understand this "hot spot" business. If the metering pattern is bottom-centre-weighted (camera held horizontal), then for vertical shots you'll have to meter before you finally frame and shoot, yes?
In the Cosina made cameras the metering pattern is "lower-left-corner-weighted" (camera held horizontal), so you can hold it vertical and meter, if you know which side should be up. Works well!
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2009   #30
Sauli Särkkä
Registered User
 
Sauli Särkkä is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 44
No matter how I turn, I always have to use my right eye. On the 13th of this month, it'll be five years since I lost vision in my left eye due to an explosives accident in the army, but such is life.

I haven't tried the button down -technique just yet, but I'll be sure to give it a try. Somehow, I think it might just be the thing for me.


-Sale
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2009   #31
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
 
payasam's Avatar
 
payasam is offline
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delhi, India
Age: 65
Posts: 4,430
Thank you, MRohlfing. There must be a rational explanation for this strange design.

Sale, many of our concerns must seem absurdly trivial to someone in your position. The shutter down hold should work if your nose is neither too large nor too hard.
__________________
"Payasam" means a sloppy pudding. Little kids love it, and I'm a little kid with a big grey beard and diabetes.
Olympus E-3, Sony A7; Nikon FE; four Zuiko Digital lenses; Sony FE 28-70 zoom; Nikkor 35/2, Nikkor 50/1.4, Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8, Nikkor 85/2, Nikkor 105/2.5
RFF gallery
Flickr gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-08-2009   #32
Sauli Särkkä
Registered User
 
Sauli Särkkä is offline
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Not too trivial, it's really not a big deal as one gets used to the lack of depth perception, etc. I think it might actually help me visualize photos a little easier, since I don't have a feeling of depth from stereo vision, but that feeling of depth that I want in pictures, I see just by looking...no squinting required


-Sale
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-08-2009   #33
Larky
Registered User
 
Larky is offline
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 515
"Not too trivial, it's really not a big deal as one gets used to the lack of depth perception, etc. I think it might actually help me visualize photos a little easier, since I don't have a feeling of depth from stereo vision, but that feeling of depth that I want in pictures, I see just by looking...no squinting required"

I'm strangely jealous.
__________________
My Flickr
My Blog
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-06-2009   #34
kkr2k2
Registered User
 
kkr2k2's Avatar
 
kkr2k2 is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hyderabad, India
Posts: 10
This thread, just made me think.....
"how about holding the camera up-side down!!!"
The shutter button will be on the left side on the bottom and people having trouble with their noses will have no issues with their nose touching the camera!!!!
__________________
Current: Canon Canonet QL19; Pentax K1000, Pentax SP, Canon A610; Fuji S5100.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-07-2009   #35
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
 
payasam's Avatar
 
payasam is offline
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delhi, India
Age: 65
Posts: 4,430
I suggest that you think before you post. Hyderabad is the city in which I was born, and it was not then associated with garbage.
__________________
"Payasam" means a sloppy pudding. Little kids love it, and I'm a little kid with a big grey beard and diabetes.
Olympus E-3, Sony A7; Nikon FE; four Zuiko Digital lenses; Sony FE 28-70 zoom; Nikkor 35/2, Nikkor 50/1.4, Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8, Nikkor 85/2, Nikkor 105/2.5
RFF gallery
Flickr gallery
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-07-2009   #36
myM8yogi
Registered User
 
myM8yogi's Avatar
 
myM8yogi is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Age: 39
Posts: 203
Right eye. shutter button down and pressed by thumb. This works best for me because my fingers always seem to get in the way of the brightness viewfinder window in portrait shooting.

As for the beard, I shaved mine recently just for a change and some freshness in the summer heat - NOT because I was worried about my wife knowing where I'd been... though I understand that can be an issue for some....
  Reply With Quote

Grip further complicates vertical hold
Old 08-07-2009   #37
Sean Moran
Registered User
 
Sean Moran's Avatar
 
Sean Moran is offline
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Belfast
Posts: 137
Grip further complicates vertical hold

Nice thread Mukul.

A further complication is the addition of a handgrip. I find that it makes vertical holding for portraits quite tricky. With the shutter button at the bottom it's not too bad, but with the shutter button up in the air, the whole contraption is a tad unstable.

May I add a question: For vertical, do you focus with the camera in 'landscape' mode, then swivel to 'portrait', or do you focus with the camera in 'portrait'?

Best wishes,

Sean.

In Tipperary, Ireland right now; about to set off to Morocco with just an M3 and 50 Summicron I think (I'm tempted to take more, but I think that just this combination with a meter, film, yellow filter, Gordy strap and small Billingham bag [the one made for the rangefinder Contax] will be enough)
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-07-2009   #38
Elektrojänis
Registered User
 
Elektrojänis's Avatar
 
Elektrojänis is offline
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkr2k2 View Post
"how about holding the camera up-side down!!!"
I have actually done that a few times now, but for a different reason...

I have used it to take some photos of some rock shows with a Fed-2. When standing in the audience, it is a bit hard to frame so that the people in front of you will not block the view... And what makes it even harder is that the lens is lower then the viewfinder (so even if it looks fine from the viewfinder, something or somebody may be blocking the artist in the picture). Holding camera upside down gives a bit more "space" in this kind of situation. One just has to be carefull not to block tha rangefinder window when focusing, but otherwise it's usable technique in some situations.

I got to admit that I have uset it on a few shots only. More often I just hold the camera as high as my hands reach and quess the framing... Not very stable hold though, but the fed-2 will not go under 1/25 anyway and even that is a bit slow for performing rock band.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-07-2009   #39
newspaperguy
Registered User
 
newspaperguy's Avatar
 
newspaperguy is offline
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern Maryland US of A
Age: 84
Posts: 1,382
Elektrojanis -
We called those overhead shoot & pray shots: "Hail Mary's."

Payasam - Re: both eyes open shooting:
In news situations you really need to stay aware of what's happening beyond the viewfinder to stay out of trouble.
__________________
Rick Beckrich

My five -star rated children's book,

"The Little Crow Who Could Not CAW"

is now available for Kindle and other readers.

This semi-animated version of the hardbound edition
may be just perfect for your favorite 4-to-8 year old,

Available from Amazon.com, of course.

Last edited by newspaperguy : 08-07-2009 at 03:47. Reason: spc
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-07-2009   #40
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
 
payasam's Avatar
 
payasam is offline
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delhi, India
Age: 65
Posts: 4,430
Good to see you around, Sean. Let us see something of what the M3 gets in Morocco.

Haven't ever used a hand-grip so can't comment. I focus with the camera held either horiz. or vert., depending on which way I can get a line to focus on. For vertical portraits at near distances, an eye is usually good enough.
__________________
"Payasam" means a sloppy pudding. Little kids love it, and I'm a little kid with a big grey beard and diabetes.
Olympus E-3, Sony A7; Nikon FE; four Zuiko Digital lenses; Sony FE 28-70 zoom; Nikkor 35/2, Nikkor 50/1.4, Micro-Nikkor 55/2.8, Nikkor 85/2, Nikkor 105/2.5
RFF gallery
Flickr gallery
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 13:35.


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

All content on this site is Copyright Protected and owned by its respective owner. You may link to content on this site but you may not reproduce any of it in whole or part without written consent from its owner.