M2 1/8th of a second

[goodtimes]

Hi have a slight intermittent problem with the 1/8th of a second speed on my M2.
On most occasions, this speed seems accurate compared to my other camera, an M3.
But on some rare occasions, it seems like higher speed, in fact it sounds like 1/125th of a second.
The shorter curtain delay is also visible when that happens.
The M2 has the original Leica Seal so I am reluctant to send it anywhere for a fix.

Would any of you have some advise to share ?

Thanks in advance and good light to you.

[Al Kaplan]

It's probably firing at 1/50 because the delay mechanism for the second curtain isn't operating properly. It seems strange that it wouldn't affect any other speed though. There's nothing wrong with getting a CLA. That prized and covetted "original Leica Seal" is now between forty and fifty years old, just like the camera. Time to bring it in for an "oil change, lube job, replace the shocks, and adjust the steering". You wouldn't let your car go that long, would you?

[Ronald_H]

Have it CLA'd. Bought an M2 early last year. I looked up the serial and it was from 1963. This meant it was 45 years old. It had its original seal, but speeds were way off. Camera was unusable because of this. Had it done by a respected repair guy. No worries.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

If the problem would arise at 1/15, the M2's slow speed escapement likely should be lubed. Sure the fault does not appear also at 1/15?

[Kozhe]

Slow speeds (the ones when the first curtain completely travels along the frame before the second one closes) use a slow speed escapement (some kind of extension arm around the speed gear) in order to delay the activation of the second curtain. Moreover 1/8 has an independent set up and is the only slow speed that you can actually set.

You might have a problem within the slow speed escapement and with the 1/8 set screw, although if it´s still sealed most probably all it needs is a bit of cleaning and lube.

[goodtimes]

Many thanks for your inputs. Is there a manual available to DIY a CLA on the M2 ?
The cheap ass that I am is also secunded by the curiosity to understand how it works.
Cheers

[thetooth]

if money is tight put a hold on the cla . how often do you use 1/8 second .

[Ron (Netherlands)]

If this is your first camera to cla, don't do it! first try it out on e.g. a cheap Zorki 4....

[hans voralberg]

Seriously, don't try it at home, it doesn't cost much, let a technician do it. I know because I tried, I have to send my M3 in pieces to get assemble back together.

[Blank288]

I CLA'd an M3 myself and solved a slow speed escapement problem in the meantime.
I have to stress that I've a bit sharpened my skills before on several FED's and Zorki's, and a Pentax Spotmatic. Besides it was a very cheap and worn M3, so it wasn't a disaster if I should fail.

I can tell from this experience that 1 - 1/8 sec are 'driven' by the slow speed escapement 'whizzing' part, while 1/15 and 1/30 (where my problem was) are controlled by another part of the mechanism (which more or less 'ticks').
So I can understand that your problem only shows up at 1/8: the time which stresses the slow time escapement the least.
IIRC all shutter settings are separately adjustable, the 1/8 setting indeed at a separate point.
To me your problem sounds like a CLA job. I think it is feaseable by yourself when you have the right tools to lift the cover (a set of clamping vices) and a manual like 'Camera Set - Still Picture KS-15(4) Repair Training Program' which I downloaded somewhere from the net. This is the most extended one I could find, with lots of exploded views. There are more basic manuals and sketches available, a.o. from Rick Oleson.

For me as a tinkerer it was a great experience to dismantle and reassemble the M3 by myself. But unless your M2 is very shabby and worn and/or you have some fine-mechanical repair experience, tools and manuals, I second the advice to have a qualified repairman do the CLA.

[goodtimes]

I will take my time and craft the correct tools, get documentation and do it.
I think that by proceeding step by step it should be feasable.
I had already repaired a few other cameras or whatever similar looking mechanical systems.


Many thanks to all of you for your help.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Here you can find some very useful info for the cla:

http://www.pentax-manuals.com/manual...m2_service.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjGov...eature=related

[goodtimes]

Hi All,

With the help of my wife we have been working every evening on the M2. I crafted the tools during lunch time this week, got the documentation from the web, and removed the top cover and body shell. We figured out that the gears on the low speed where dry like hell. I lubricated them with special oil used on avionics instruments. I adjusted the curtains tension on the high speeds using my TV and my M3 as a reference and only had to adjust the brake a little. Windows where cleaned on the inside and we will start reassembling tomorrow.
Everything seems ballpark now and a new leatherette is on order from Morgan Sparks.
Thanks to all for your support this is great.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Can you show us a pic of the forthcoming work?

[Blank288]

Congratulations! Interesting to know how everything fits and works under the hood, isn't it?
Did you read in the manuals that oil should applied VERY reluctantly to slow speed mechanisms? One of my manuals advised only to apply a little oil on the outside bearing points and then flush the mechanism in lighter fluid finally to dilute the oil a bit further.
Some time ago I oiled the slow time escapement of a Zorki too enthousiastically, which stopped the gears from spinning completely. A new bath in lighter fluid cured the problem until now.

[goodtimes]

The Oil is extremly light Oil alsmost like gasoline.
I will make pictures tonight after work (I am in EU) before reassembling and post them. Interserting will be some of the Tools I used...
to be followed !

[goodtimes]

OK I have made a few quick pictures of the repair session. Here is my photostream:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8487951@N05/?saved=1

For the tools, the nylon electrical cable clamp is used to remove the small ring located below the rewing button. This is very convenient because it does not leave any mark at all. The sloted aluminum tubing is 6 mm ID and used to remove the top cover right hand screw, located exactly on the RH side of the frame counter. The rubber grommet and the flat rubber bushing where used to remove the flash contacts. At last the home made aluminum clamp removed the winding lever. Everything came out with no injuries at all.
There was some resistance on the removal of the body shell. After fiddling around but never forcing on the parts, I eventually found the correct motion, kind of a Zig-Zag required to pull it down from the main body.
I adjusted the high speeds with my local TV (luckily we still have a low frequency cathode ray tube) by comparing to a reliable M7. I started from almost 0 tension on the curtains and progressively increased it until I got the correct slit appearing on TV screen. Quite cool to do.
The slow speeds where came in right just like on the M7. I am still in the procees of making a shutter tester which wil be connected to an oscilloscope.
Basically no real difficulty was encountered. I just followed good mechanical principles like organization, cleanliness, and worked slowly with no pression.
Thanks again to all of you for your comments which were very much appreciated.

[Blank288]

You invented a nice set of improvised tools. I had to buy an aftermarket set of circular clamps on Ebay which did the job too, but your solution is certainly cheaper.
Indeed it isn't really difficult when you take your time - The Pentax Spotmatic which I CLA'd before I dared to touch my M3 was a bit more complicated, with its additional mirror housing.
My next M3 repair action will probably be the transplantation of the opening shutter curtain, which is visibly deteriorating, but since it still is light tight and running, I'll keep on shooting until it definitively breaks.

[goodtimes]

Erik,

when you will fix your M3, can I ask you to get in touch with me directly and post on this forum ? joanbont@yahoo.com flickr : CustomM8
I have really enjoyed the repair of my M2 but I have a bunch of other Leica including 2ea M3s. They are in real good shape though.
Now my M2 is reassembled and is awaiting the new Vulcanit C from Cameraleather Morgan Sparks. BTW Morgan is really a cool guy and I appreciate his commercial attitude.
Good light and again thanks for your support.

[goodtimes]

I am currently looking for the correct Phototransistor to build the Shutter Tester and in the meantime I thought about an efficient process to enable the testing of the Shutter at all Speeds at No cost !
Here the trick, it involves close contact between a Digital Nikon and the M2 :

1) Remove the back from your M Camera.
2) Procure a reliable Digital Camera with possible M mode (manual) on which you can select the Bulb mode.
3) Start with the 1s Test. Position the Leica M on B mode and keep the shutter open.
4) Position the shutter speed on the Digital Camera to 1s.
5) Locate the Digital camera right behind the Leica M with its removed back.
6) Fire the 1s on the Digital Camera.
7) Note the obtained picture number on the Digital.
8) Switch the Leica M speed to from B to 1s.
9) Switch the Digital Camera from 1s to B.
10) Trigger the Digital camera shutter to B and keep the shutter open.
11) Trigger the Leica M on the 1s.
12) Release the digital shutter button immediatly after step 11.
13) Compare picture from step 7 to the one from step 12; they should have the same exposure rendition.
14) Repeat steps 3 to 13 for all speeds
15) Open a cold Beer and enjoy !
Note : to avoid parasite light to disturb the test, cover gap between the Digital Camera and the Leica M with a black Tshirt or a black cloth.

With this test my M2 reveales no differences up to 1/500s. Only at 1/1000s there is a slight difference in tone most probably due to the lack of real 1/1000s at this set point. Quite normal for a Leica M and actually OK for practical use.

Here are the pictures related to this test:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8487951@N05/3277815229/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8487951@N05/3278636172/