M9 conceptual sketches

[Harry Lime]

I put these together and was curious to see what people think.
The first approach is more traditional in nature.

Spec: Traditional design

- Heavy duty weather sealing to protect against dust and moisture.

- 'AE-L' lock button

- '-/+' button for adjusting exposure compensation and ASA (holding down
'set' button and -/+ adjusts asa)

- Much stiffer indents on the power/shooting mode lever

- 512 or 1024 Point RGB matrix metering, integrated in to the RF unit.

- Auto-ASA exposure mode. Camera adjusts asa so the shutter speed does not fall below a user specified speed.

- Live view

- Full Frame sensor if possible

- 16MP - 21MP. Preference for dynamic range over resolution.

- Uncompressed 16bit color

- No AA filter

- IR filter over sensor

- 5 fps max

- Optional heavy duty power pack (uses 2 x M8 style batteries for a total of 3)

[Tuolumne]

Crop factor?

/T

[Harry Lime]

This is the more modern design:

Spec Modern:

- Heavy duty weather sealing to protect against dust and moisture.

- 'AE-L' lock button

- '-/+' button for adjusting exposure compensation and ASA (holding down
'set' button and -/+ adjusts asa)

- Dial switch on rear for on/off/continuous/selftimer

-OLED readout on top plate showing shutter speed, shooting mode, frame counter, battery level etc.

- 512 or 1024 Point RGB matrix metering, integrated in to the RF unit.

- Auto-ASA exposure mode. Camera adjusts asa so the shutter speed does not fall below a user specified speed.

- Live view

- Full Frame sensor if possible

- 16MP - 21MP. Preference for dynamic range over resolution.

- Uncompressed 16bit color

- No AA filter

- IR filter over sensor

- 5 fps max

- Optional heavy duty power pack (uses 2 x M8 style batteries for a total of 3)

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Tuolumne

Crop factor?

/T

Hopefully full frame...

If that's still not possible, were back to APS-H (x1.33)

[marke]

Cool, Harry. How about a thumb rest?

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by marke

Cool, Harry. How about a thumb rest?

That's a tough one.

Obviously we no longer have an advance lever and it's not coming back.
Thumbs up! may block the AE-L and EV compensation buttons.

I though about a thumb rest that pivoted out of the top plate, but I'm not sure how crowded it is in there...

Hopefully the edges of the AE-L or EV buttons will provide some grip.

It's a tough one. It would be simple to add a small thumb and palm rest to the back of the camera, but everyone would probably freak out, because it would change the shape of the body...

[Faintandfuzzy]

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, but maybe people will like it. I would like to see just a bit more of an indent and extension....kind of like a small grip to make it a bit more stable in hand.

A 16 mp sensor is all that is needed for a camera designed to be handheld. Any more than that is wasted unless you're using a tripod all the time. For me, huge dynamic range as highlight latitude is more important to gid rid of that digital look. A 16 bit A/D convertor and 12+ stops would be nice. Improved metering to better work with the increased DR and latitude would be welcome.

Oh heck....just give me Tri-X and an M7 and I'll be happy.

[35mmdelux]

Must be FF and sub $5000.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Faintandfuzzy

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, but maybe people will like it.

On the battery pack? That's so you can check the level, without it being attached to the camera.

I would like to see just a bit more of an indent and extension....kind of like a small grip to make it a bit more stable in hand.

Well, I didn't want to get lynched for changing the body shape. I guess you could add a grip, like Tom A is working on.

A 16 mp sensor is all that is needed for a camera designed to be handheld. Any more than that is wasted unless you're using a tripod all the time.

I wanted a little more resolution for cropping.

For me, huge dynamic range as highlight latitude is more important to gid rid of that digital look. A 16 bit A/D convertor and 12+ stops would be nice. Improved metering to better work with the increased DR and latitude would be welcome.

Oh heck....just give me Tri-X and an M7 and I'll be happy.

I hear ya brother. 12 stops and 16it (or more).
Still shooting Tri-X...
;-)

[sonofdanang]

Originally Posted by Faintandfuzzy

Interesting. I think the battery level indicator is kind of a waste, .....

Well, firm/software battery life predictors are excellent. I work in the extreme cold quite often and the only way to avoid all kinds of problems is to know when to switch (nods to those who remember the Tareyton ads) batteries.

Full-frame will have to be the spec. And spend, spend, spend on that A-D converter....

[Bill Pierce]

[quote=Harry Lime;977380]I put these together and was curious to see what people think.

Harry -

I'm deeply flattered that you chose to put the M9 thread on this subsite, subdivision or whatever you call it on the rf forum. I really think there have been some amazing and intelligent threads as of late.

I'm also grateful because I have been working like mad and haven't had an intelligent thought in a week.

Bill

[dfoo]

I would rather a jog wheel for exposure compensation, and a similar wheel on the opposite side of the camera for ISO.

[ali_baba]

my issues are as follows.

i find that i use my shutter finger to move the ss dial when metering.

i find that i use my thumb (and a thumbs up) to hold the camera (i use an m8 handgrip as well).

I don't think putting those controls where the thumb rests is a good idea at all.

if you give back the advance lever that's one thing, as it can be used to hold the camera. yet as is this just wouldn't work for me at all.

i think the wheel should be out front and the thumb space should be a grip or advance lever for a true discreet mode.

[Harry Lime]

Hey Bill

I tried to design it as a 'shooters camera'. Something that would be a viable tool for a modern day PJ, documentary or street shooter. In light of that where else to go but here for good feedback?
;-)

I have no illusions that Leica will see this and adopt any of these ideas. I'm not even sure how closely they listen to the gang at Magnum or other pros who are shooting M8 these days. It certainly doesn't seem so, judging from their recent actions.... But then again I consider the M8 a stop gap design that Leica had to rush out the door in order to stay in business... Hopefully the S2 points to the future and the M9 will be a very different beast (although I do have some beef about the S2 ergonomics...).

Feli

[Avotius]

What is the purpose of taking out TTL metering and putting it in the RF mechanism? It would make the RF even more complicated then it already is and non TTL metering systems are easily fooled by light coming from sources above the camera, ie. my old mamiya 6 would always get confused by sun shining on the meter that was not shining on the scene, ie in shadow areas.

Dont take out TTL metering, its just a step backwards. Also get rid of the white balance sensor thing, we dont want that

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by ali_baba

my issues are as follows.

i find that i use my shutter finger to move the ss dial when metering.

i find that i use my thumb (and a thumbs up) to hold the camera (i use an m8 handgrip as well).

I don't think putting those controls where the thumb rests is a good idea at all. if you give back the advance lever that's one thing, as it can be used to hold the camera. yet as is this just wouldn't work for me at all.

i think the wheel should be out front and the thumb space should be a grip or advance lever for a true discreet mode.

Well, I highly doubt that the advance lever is ever going to come back, so we may as well forget about that.

I don't think the buttons on the rear of the top plate will be a problem.

For one thing we hold the camera with two hand, cradling it from below to operate the lens. Your thumb can probably rest just ot the left of the AE-L button or between it and the EV buttons.

The AE-L and EV buttons are supposed to be right under your thumb, so you can operate them without taking your eye from the viewfinder. The problem with putting EV compensation on a dial is that you then need to look at the EV compensation readout in the viewfinder, which forces you to take your eye off the action. If instead EV comp. is operated by a button, you simply count the amount of clicks you are making and know exactly how much you have changed exposure. One click equals a change of -/+ 0.5 EV. Two click would mean -/+1 stop. A dial doesn't allow that sort of blind control. That's one thing I hate about my D700 and the lever on the R8/R9.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Avotius

What is the purpose of taking out TTL metering and putting it in the RF mechanism? It would make the RF even more complicated then it already is and non TTL metering systems are easily fooled by light coming from sources above the camera, ie. my old mamiya 6 would always get confused by sun shining on the meter that was not shining on the scene, ie in shadow areas.

Dont take out TTL metering, its just a step backwards. Also get rid of the white balance sensor thing, we dont want that

Never intended to take out TTL metering for flash. It would probably be a dual metering system. TTL for the flash would probably remain inside the mount, as it currently is.

Unless you place the matrix meter sensor on a lollypop (in front of the shutter) like in the CL and M5, there is not other place to put it but in the rangefinder. The M does not have a mirror like an SLR, that the sensor can meter off of or though. The only mirror it has is in the RF unit.

In practice the whole metering system would be transparent to the user, just like it is now. The only difference that you would notice is that your exposures would be almost always dead on, even in tricky lighting situations.

[digitalintrigue]

Add a molded grip on the front and have a thumb-rest on the back, leaves room for the buttons.

[antiquark]

First of all, IANALU (I am not a Leica user!)

Maybe this would be a good thread to ask: what is the "essence" of a Leica? The Leica M9 should try to capture the essence of the Leica M series.

Here are, in point form, some of the things that make a Leica a Leica (IMHO):

- Superior lens quality.

- Compact form.

- Fixed focal length lenses, no zooms. (I guess the tri-elmar is sort of an anomaly there.)

- Rangefinder focusing mechanism, framelines.

- Manual control of exposure, maybe aperture priority.

- Manual control of ISO.

- Ability to shoot without continually checking the LCD (a.k.a., "chimping")

- Low light shooting capability.

- Sensor with film-like capabilities.

- Quiet shutter.


With those in mind, here is my interpretation of the specs for the M9 (or maybe more like the M7D):

- Typical rangefinder mechanism.

- Aperture priority like M7.

- No LCD.

- Possibly Fuji SuperCCD sensor for a film-like 12 stops of dynamic range.

- Images saved in RAW only, no JPGS, to preserve inherent quality.

- APS-C sensor, but up to 6400 ISO. That will permit smaller f/2.8 lenses to replace f/1.4 lenses, but with same image quality.

- Cloth shutter for quiet operation.


Note that this isn't meant to be taken seriously, I just think armchair engineering is sort of fun.

[amateriat]

Given that the closest existing film-based analog to the M8 is Konica's Hexar RF (which had a stillborn digital prototype), I think the M9's controls could be similarly streamlined without diluting the camera's "Leicaness."

- The Hex has exactly one (tiny-but-legible) LCD, on the top panel. This provides both frame-count and always-on battery-condition readout, so there's never a question of how much juice is on hand. (I like the idea of a charge indicator on the M9's battery packs; we had them on both AA and NiCad packs for the Nikon F2 and Minolta XK motor bodies, and most any laptop computer battery has 'em as well.)

- Getting a Grip: The Hex uses neoprene for the touchy-feely parts of the body, which, quite coincidently, can be (and, in the case of the HRF, were) shaped for better handholding. Just as effective as sculpting the metalwork thusly, and obviously cheaper. (Hell, you could even offer an "a la carte" custom molding option for the covering, which could be changed if and when the camera was sold to someone else.)

- Titanium covers. No excuses.

- Any color you like, as long as it's black epoxy. Warm to the touch, unobtrusive, and tougher than lacquer or enamel. The mark of a camera that's meant to be used, not merely ogled.

A few other non-Hex-centric things came to mind just now:

- Bluetooth. Given the relative difficulty of removing the SD card from the M8, it would be nice to tether the M9 "live" to either a laptop or external storage device when one is in the middle of a serious shooting jag that makes confetti out of even 16GB cards.

- A dust-cleaning regimen that doesn't induce psychosis (i.e. does not involve Service Dept. intervention).

That's all. But, Harry, you're really on the right track here, IMO


- Barrett

[MikeL]

Originally Posted by amateriat

Given that the closest existing film-based analog to the M8 is Konica's Hexar RF....

- Barrett

I didn't know Konica made a rangefinder. Is it as durable as a Leica?

()

[DougFord]

The next camera Leica should design is a small, light weight interchangeable lens camera for PJ/documentary work.
Digital FF, 20mp +
Auto focus lenses with manual focus capability
LCD, live view with vari-angle capability, fold-able and locked against the body if unused.
EVF
new lens mount design
Body shape somewhat like the sigma DP1 with a molded grip. The size of the camera should be kept as small as possible, hopefully not too much bigger than the DP1.
Sub frame made of light weight alloy with some sort of polymer body, perhaps a form of zytel. The entire camera would be unfinished, weather proof, flat black textured polymer.
With the lens and battery removed the camera would be unbelievably light in weight and mass. Sans battery and lens with body cap installed, when thrown as far and high as humanly possible and allowed to land on the hard ground would still be fully intact, ready to load with both battery and lens.
To start with, three new special built auto focus prime lenses, 28mm, 35mm and 65mm.

[sonofdanang]

One thing I would like is, in conjunction with an LCD with live view (on a pivot, of course), and with the colour accuracy of the later Nikon dSLRs, would be a white balance tied to a control wheel. I can tune most of my dSLR bodies WB but it, in most cases, takes tweaking up and down, then escaping to check, then tweaking. It'd be nice to see the change immediately....

Cheers all,

S

[amateriat]

Originally Posted by sonofdanang

One thing I would like is, in conjunction with an LCD with live view (on a pivot, of course), and with the colour accuracy of the later Nikon dSLRs, would be a white balance tied to a control wheel. I can tune most of my dSLR bodies WB but it, in most cases, takes tweaking up and down, then escaping to check, then tweaking. It'd be nice to see the change immediately....

S

Damn...I knew I was forgetting something. That drives me a bit nuts when shooting digital as well. Thanks for this!

Originally Posted by MikeL

I didn't know Konica made a rangefinder. Is it as durable as a Leica?

()

Mike, Mike, Mike...I can't take you anywhere, can I?


- Barrett

[dfoo]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

If instead EV comp. is operated by a button, you simply count the amount of clicks you are making and know exactly how much you have changed exposure. One click equals a change of -/+ 0.5 EV. Two click would mean -/+1 stop. A dial doesn't allow that sort of blind control. That's one thing I hate about my D700 and the lever on the R8/R9.

I don't know about the D700, but the 5d jog wheel is "clicky". Therefore with a wheel it would be the same thing... count the clicks. The advantage of a wheel over buttons is clear. Harder to accidently push, one control instead of two, easier to operate blind.