do your neg scans have more noise?

[katgut@earthlink.net]

Hi,
I've been scanning both Velvia and Portra 160/400 on my Epson V500 (6x6 film size).
The Velvia (and Astia) scans are very clean with no noise, but the negative scans are very noisy. Has anyone had this experience? Is there something I'm doing wrong? I should add that I saw similar results when I sent out film to be scanned by a service on a Nikon 9000.
thanks

[mfogiel]

Most likely your neg scans are underexposed, and this exaggerates the grain. As a rule of thumb, you should be rating C41 negs at half the box speed and chromes at 1/3rd stop over the box speed.

[bmattock]

Originally Posted by mfogiel

Most likely your neg scans are underexposed, and this exaggerates the grain. As a rule of thumb, you should be rating C41 negs at half the box speed and chromes at 1/3rd stop over the box speed.

I've never heard that advice before. That's a full stop overexposure on the color print film. The most I've heard advocated is a third of a stop, which in my opinion is so slight as to be negligible on most scans anyway.

I suppose I ought to try it out to see how my scans turn out, but to be honest, I haven't had a problem with 'noise' in my scans. Scratches and dust from fumble-fingered processing, yes.

[daveywaugh]

I'd say it's probably quite normal, although it depends on how 'much' more - would be great to see some examples.

Neg scanning is very 'software dependent' in the sense that the scanner has to obviously interpret range based on an orange mask rather than simply seeing a positive image. I used to work as a drum scanner operator in the early 90's... the thought of scanning a neg was unheard of then! You just didn't do it.

Now I only shoot neg because film and processing is cheap - I love C41 B&W because it's easy, and I have just started shooting 120 colour (mainly Reala). The advice for overexposing I think is spot on - the opposite for Velvia (which is usually -1/3 stop). Try it. I'd also experiment more with your software settings, because neg scanning is more hit and miss. I used to think I could scan a bit of Velvia well but I am still on a steep learning curve with neg!

I would also try another film. I have nothing scientific to back this up, but I have heard that Porta (and other pro neg films) are difficult to scan. Do you have the same problem with 'standard' neg film?

[dmr]

I see some digital noise when looking closely at lab scans of color negatives done on the Fuji Frontier and the Noritsu minilabs.

However, when I scan myself, both slides and negatives come out equally clean. The only issue I've had is grain aliasing when scanning some films (Agfa 400, for example) at lower (1200) resolutions. The trick to minimizing this is to scan at a higher (3200) resolution and then downsizing as needed.

[photophorous]

I have a theory, but it's as much of a question as it is an answer. I've mostly scanned slides, but I've noticed there is usually more noise in the shadows than the highlights. I think that makes sense because that part of the film is more dense. The opposite would be true with negative film, which means you'd have more noise in the highlights, where it would be easier to see.

One thing I've definitely noticed is that negative film is grainier. I think that is the main reason I get better results scanning slides.

Paul

[katgut@earthlink.net]

I'm coming to the conclusion my noisy negs are just underexposed. I even shot them at a lower speed: about 200 instead of the rated 400. The film is from 2001. Could it have just lost speed as it aged? Maybe I should now shoot at 100.

[Pherdinand]

2001?
That is quite old for colour negative. I have had major grain problems with expired, although cold kept, colour negative film.
About noiwe - i scan on a v700, and i see the same as you, noise is usually more pronounced on c41. I am sure this is due to scanning with completely different parameters. I guess there is just more electronic amplification needed (which is the source for noise) when you scan c41, than with slides.
If i scan a very dark region of a slide and want to make it lighter, i do get noise from there too. Mostly in form of green spekles. Definitely noise, not grain.

[benlees]

I also get noise on my scanned c41 in the shadow areas. I am a newb at this so it could my lack of skills, but the noise is there for overexposed shots as well. My test roll (Portra 160VC) with an Autocord revealed slow shutter speeds- slower than I thought while exercising it a bit before I put the film in- and the scans showed the same amount of noise as other, properly exposed, images.

I should add I use the Epson V700.

[mfogiel]

bmattock
Here are a few examples to illustrate the point:
BW400CN @200 a 35mm frame


XP2 @ 320 35mm frame:



B&W400CN@800 6x6 frame:



BW400CN @1600 6x6 frame:

[willie_901]

The new Portas (160 and 400) scan better than any other color negative film I've used.

FIlm that is expired by 7 years may have under gone chemical degradation and changes (besides loss of speed) that could block up the color dye granules.

[katgut@earthlink.net]

Sorry,
I'm not sure what the above B&W examples were intended to illustrate. I don't have a problem with B&W--it's color noise with color neg film.