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Old 09-07-2015   #161
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Quote:
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Well done Raid. This camera does belong in a museum.
Personally I wouldn't want to use any object associated with so much grief/horror.
I agree, Frank. No matter what its inventor may have imagined for it, it was part of a mission of mass destruction, and that legacy cannot be undone or dissociated from its optics.



This shard of a sake cup was found on the street in Nagasaki just after the bombing. It was being passed around at the annual Hiroshima-Nagasaki remembrance two years ago. I photographed it with a 1948 Serenar lens on a Ricoh GXR.
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Old 09-07-2015   #162
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I also feel this way, gentlemen. The camera was used in WWII, in preparation for dropping the A bombs in Japan. I di not spend any money to get the camera, but I traded off some SLR equipment then. It was enjoyful to do the research for several years to uncover its history. It was quite fun to have discussions here at RFF and also at some other website about the history of this camera. I visited with my family the Hiroshima Museum at the site where the A bomb was dropped.
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Old 09-07-2015   #163
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Never heard about this camera until I read your thread here and at Pnet. Thank you.

Very generous and thoughtful of you to possibility donate.

I served in the Navy and our ship had repair work performed on it in Sasebo Japan. While there, I took a bus to Nagasaki and spent the day photographing. Slide film. Didn't realize it that folks in Japan drive on left side of the road like Britian.
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Old 09-07-2015   #164
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I visited Japan for six years a few yeras ago, but I did not drive a car while being there.
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Old 09-07-2015   #165
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Raid, Before it goes have you been able to get any shots? Those huge lenses remind me of those special lenses they used to make the ultra-closeup shots at baseball games and such. Some of the pictures I've seen of them (only a few left) looked to have very large lenses also.
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Old 09-07-2015   #166
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There is no film back for the camera, and it takes two large men to carry it around. The lenses are huge. Each lens may weigh 30 Pounds. I thought at first that I could have someone create a film back for the camera, but this is very costly. Also, there is no guarantee that this camera can be used for portraits or landscape photography without an enormous set of bellows.
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Old 09-07-2015   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankS View Post
Well done Raid. This camera does belong in a museum.
Personally I wouldn't want to use any object associated with so much grief/horror.
I agree with you, Frank.
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Old 09-07-2015   #168
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You did a good thing/the right thing, Raid.
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Old 09-07-2015   #169
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I wanted from the start a good place for the camera. The camera is innocent. The users used it. It is also a 3D innovation of its time.
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Old 09-07-2015   #170
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Yes, the camera is innocent. That is the best way to put it.

And you have been perhaps the best possible steward of it, and are making a researcher's (and camera lover's) contribution to the historical archive.
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Old 09-07-2015   #171
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Thank you Robert. We can all learn from the experiences of others. I find such a camera worthy of being preserved for future generations. It is a less direct way (than the A-bomb proto-type) to remind people of WWII events.
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Old 09-07-2015   #172
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Raid

As has been mentioned, contact the Smithsonian at the Udvar - Hazy location

Here are a few shots I took at the Smithsonian old Silver Hill, Maryland restoration facility in the early 1990's (Enola Gay)

[IMG]ENOLA-GAY-1 by Atwood90, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old 09-07-2015   #173
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[IMG]ENOLA-GAY-2 by Atwood90, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old 09-07-2015   #174
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[IMG]ENOLA-GAY-3 by Atwood90, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old 09-08-2015   #175
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The Smithsonian came to my mind several years ago, but I decided not go this route as they have over a million items in storage, and my camera may just be put aside. Thanks for the images.
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Old 09-08-2015   #176
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If you don't want it, and you don't want a museum to have it, the other option is to sell it. Someone would be thrilled to have this piece of history, associated with the bomb.

As far as the strange "not wanting to be associated with it" comments, I concur it's just an inanimate object. But the Manhattan Project was America's largest industrial project ever accomplished. It's goal was to build the bomb before the Nazis did, because as we know with the German Vengeance weapons, the V-1 and V-2 (made by slave labor who were worked to death) WERE being used daily against civilians. If the Nazis got the bomb, they would have used it to decimate Europe. When we won the European war conventionally, the bomb was still very useful.

We didn't start the war, Japan and Europe did. By dropping the Bomb, all service members at the time had their lives spared. It was estimated that another 250,000 to half million Allies would have died trying to assault the home islands of Japan like we did at Iwo Jima and Okinawa. There....every Japanese soldier and thousands of civilians fought to the death, or committed suicide. So not only did the Atomic bomb save as many Americans as we had already lost in WWII, it saved millions of Japanese who would NOT have surrendered.

The camera is a piece of important history on how America saved the world from Japanese raping and beheading in China and the Pacific, and and the Holocaust. Don't forget why we were there, we didn't start the war. We ended it.
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Old 09-08-2015   #177
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Please see what has been posted above.
The camera has been donated to the US Naval Avaiation Museum in Pensacola, Florida, Garrett.

Let's stay away from a discussion on the benefits/lack of benefits for dropping an A-bomb on people. This camera is "innocent" of any bad deeds.
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Old 09-08-2015   #178
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Great, I missed that. I was stationed in Pensacola at Corry Station in the Navy. I went back this summer, and visited the USN Aviation Museum again.

Agreed, as were the people that used the camera, and the device, etc. I just need to post the truth about history when others are posting veiled attacks about our purpose for the bomb. And there were several, which no one stopped.
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Old 09-08-2015   #179
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Only a moderator can stop postings that are deemed inappropritae, but no such postings were done here. There are differences in opinions on how different people view the dropping of the A-bombs, but my thread really was from the start about this unique camera.
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Old 09-08-2015   #180
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It is nice that the Navy Museum is willing to take it, preserve it, and display it. Good job getting it to a place like that Raid.

ZivcoPhoto - Those are neat photos. Thanks for sharing them. If you can believe it, I live in the northern Virginia area but have yet to visit there.
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Old 09-08-2015   #181
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Did someone already say it? Standard aerial photography format in US is 9"x9" since a very long time ago. I believe since the 1930s, definitely before WWII. Raid's camera is (was) most likely 9x9.

I have some incomplete aerial cameras in my "hoard", lots of images in print and transparency. Today, I (we) do photogrammetry with stereo digital imagery. Its rather an advance in accuracy, precision, and flexibility. More convenient too. The old stereoplotters are something to behold....best done in person so you can appreciate the complexity and Rube Goldberg nature of them.
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Old 09-08-2015   #182
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It is very likely that I have/had a 9x9 camera. The back opening was square.
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Old 09-08-2015   #183
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What a worthwhile thing to do. Pity it was so expensive/difficult to get it operational -- would love to see a portrait from that. And it would be a great personal relic.

Swords to plowshares &c.
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Old 09-08-2015   #184
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I saw an aerial camera being serviced at Wild/Leitz many years ago.
It was indeed 9"x 9" Format.approx.
Very Long rolls went thru it.
If two exposures, slightly apart in time, are done high above, they can become stereo.
I am sure those who have used or played with such beasts, will find a back!
The X-Ray film, one shot at a time sounds great.
Not as X-Ray, but as cheap BW film..
Then sell it! Your kids will benefit.
A f1.66 lens on such a huge format sounds wild.

Last edited by leicapixie : 09-12-2015 at 04:30. Reason: added approx and use of film.
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Old 09-09-2015   #185
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I was initially informed by some optics experts that maybe the camera [and very fast lens] were used in physics lab experiments and in X-Ray experiments. The max aperture of 1.66 is unsual for a 10x10 camera. The lens hood is impressive looking.
The camera and lens would be useless in X-ray experiments because the refracting index of glass for X-rays is exactly 1, meaning that X-rays cannot be focused by lenses made of glass.

If I were you, I'd get the prominence established before you do anything else. You need to get Winnek's daughter to send you a signed letter with a certified copy of the diary page, then you need to hit the libraries (by which I mean physically go there), find pictures of aerial cameras used in the bombers, speak to the bomber and ground crew who were involved and might still be alive, find the original negatives of the images and see if they could match your camera and lens, talk to the Air Force aerial reconnaissance team, etc.

At this point, all you have is a vague statement that might be consistent with the camera being used in Boxcar, but that's all. You need to establish that before you do anything else.
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Old 09-09-2015   #186
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Very interesting piece of history even if it is connected with one of the biggest mistakes ever. Imagine that call...."kokura is covered in fog, we can see anything." other side of the line replies "ok whats the next city on the list?" not a good day.
The Japanese deserved A bomb for what they did to other countries. People forgive Germany but not Japan. THEY ARE THE INVADERS AND AGGRESSORS.
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Old 09-09-2015   #187
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I gave the Naval Aviation Museum whatever information I have on this camera, and their historians took it from there. The believe that it is a fact that this camera was used in WWII.

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The camera and lens would be useless in X-ray experiments because the refracting index of glass for X-rays is exactly 1, meaning that X-rays cannot be focused by lenses made of glass.

If I were you, I'd get the prominence established before you do anything else. You need to get Winnek's daughter to send you a signed letter with a certified copy of the diary page, then you need to hit the libraries (by which I mean physically go there), find pictures of aerial cameras used in the bombers, speak to the bomber and ground crew who were involved and might still be alive, find the original negatives of the images and see if they could match your camera and lens, talk to the Air Force aerial reconnaissance team, etc.

At this point, all you have is a vague statement that might be consistent with the camera being used in Boxcar, but that's all. You need to establish that before you do anything else.
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Old 09-09-2015   #188
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The Japanese deserved A bomb for what they did to other countries. People forgive Germany but not Japan. THEY ARE THE INVADERS AND AGGRESSORS.
Are you done with your racist slur?
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Old 09-11-2015   #189
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The daughter of Douglas Winnek sent me an email yesterday and today too. She may have seen my WWII camera at the Naval Aviation Museum, and she sounds very happy about it.
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Old 09-11-2015   #190
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I'm glad it is working out for several people. Next time I'm down to Florida I'll have to check it out.
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Old 09-12-2015   #192
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Why not place a ground-glass on back and see what the images might look like?
Take some images with a digital of the screen.
Interesting (if possible to do) portraits as lens may only do infinity..
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Old 09-12-2015   #193
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Great story here Do we have any links to the images these cameras made?
It took me over 12 years to figure out the history of this camera, and it may take more years to (ever) find military (maybe secret) images that were taken by it.
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Old 09-12-2015   #194
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Why not place a ground-glass on back and see what the images might look like?
Take some images with a digital of the screen.
Interesting (if possible to do) portraits as lens may only do infinity..
The camera is on display at a museum. It is now their camera. I doubt it that they will be interested in ever using it.
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