M8-2

[Bill Pierce]

For awhile I have been wondering about the $2000 upgrade for the M8. Leitz picks up your M8, ships it to Germany, opens up the camera, throws away your old shutter and viewing screen, replaces them with a quieter shutter and a tougher viewing screen, reassembles the camera, checks it out and delivers it back to you. That incurs a lot greater expense in shipping, labor and wastefully discarded parts than just building an M8-2 or M9 with the upgrade parts as original items.

If an upgrade is $2000, it seems the same improvements installed at the factory in a new camera would be a lot less.

Any thoughts? Have I lost my mind? Has Leitz lost theirs?

Bill

[kbg32]

Apparently Bill, the upgrade procedure has changed along with the Leica CEO. Leitz will no longer pick up your camera. You have to send it to Leitz in New Jersey, if here in the States, and they will send it to Solms, or Solms if you're living across the pond. You have your choice of replacing both the shutter and screen togther, or having them replaced separately. The upgrades begin in August.

Yes, it probably would be a great idea if there was a new camera incorporating both. Apparently they don't want to leave out current owners.

[MartinP]

I would suspect that the next (if ever) digital M will have a lot more changes than what is available in the upgrade program, and that an M8-2 would be a spoiler for a possible next model. One assumes that the cost of the upgrades is, at least, covered by the charge - else some marketing genius might be a bit too clever ?

[funkaoshi]

I also found it strange that the new M8s they produce don't have these 'features' by default. (It also doesn't seem inconsistent with how they have operated in the past when they add a feature to an existing model.)

[vincentbenoit]

Originally Posted by Bill Pierce

Have I lost my mind? Has Leitz lost theirs?

Leitz haven't lost their mind. Their customers have. [insert suitable smillie here]

Vincent

[pesphoto]

M8 for $1200....?
http://providence.craigslist.org/pho/668941851.html

[PhotoMat]

Originally Posted by pesphoto

M8 for $1200....?
http://providence.craigslist.org/pho/668941851.html

My monitor must be off -- that "chrome" body looks awful dark to me!

You would think that the scammer could at least match the photo to the written lie.

[pesphoto]

Originally Posted by PhotoMat

My monitor must be off -- that "chrome" body looks awful dark to me!

You would think that the scammer could at least match the photo to the written lie.

maybe he needs to proof read before posting crap like this.....

[RF-Addict]

I just flagged the same listing at the Phoenix Craig list. It's been popping up for quite some time.

[pesphoto]

just flagged it.....

[aizan]

i'm keeping my fingers crossed that new m8s will have the upgrades right out of the box. dealers must be putting pressure on leica to do this.

[saxshooter]

IMO Leica has lost their minds.

Imagine the wasted human resources Leica needs to commit to carrying through this upgrade program.

They are better off developing a lower cost M8-2 with the new shutter (maybe not sapphire glass) and mildly upgraded current guts so existing owners can have the choice of purchasing a second body, and perhaps even bring in some new owners to keep their lens line alive. I'd rather have a second camera for $2k or even $2.5k rather than just an "upgrade". Make it polycarbonate!

I'm speaking from the POV of an M8 owner. I'd like to see the company commit their resources to developing the next model, which IMO should be full frame (thus any cheaper M8-2 would not detract from its sales).

[NB23]

Yes, I think a polycarbonate cheap M8-2 is the way to go. And please get rid of the UV problem.

[Doug]

The upgrade concept is both intriguing and distressing from the standpoint of current M8 owners, and this would seem a marketing conundrum for Leica. Should the changes be rolled into new production, or left as an option? What happens to pricing, and does the resale value of previous models drop according to the cost of the upgrades...

[Ronald_H]

The M8 is currently 4800 Euros at my retailer. What the upgrade would cost, I don't even want to know.

If it was 2000 I'd buy one. A lot of people would, I guess. But how will they ever be able to make one for that money?

What if they designed one around a DX format sensor (a lot cheaper and easier than a 1.3 crop or FF) with a trio of DX Summarits, equivalent to 28. 50, 90mm?

Maybe they could have Cosina build it. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth that it isn't 'German'. And maybe it will also cause another 'CL effect', the cheaper camera becoming so popular that it threatens to kill the high end M's.

Of course the Epson RD-1 comes pretty close to all that... hopefully an updated one will see they light of day. Surem, the original is fine, but the digital world moves (too) fast.

[Harry Lime]

On one hand I like the idea that Leica is offering upgrades for the M8. Who knows, maybe this will extend to a sensor replacement etc. But on the other hand it still doesn't solve the problem, that the M8 is extremely expensive and out of reach for many who would otherwise buy one.

Leica seriously needs to figure out a way to cut the cost of the M8. It's a good camera, but depending on which 28mm you buy, a basic kit can cost over $8000 (of course a VC lens is cheaper). And frankly that's far too much for what it is.

There is a lot of talk of a cheaper digital 'CL' to be introduced this fall. I hope these rumors turn out to be true and we are looking at something priced between $1800-2500. As far as I am concerned it doesn't even have to be made in Germany, as long as the quality is good.

[Gabriel M.A.]

Originally Posted by Bill Pierce

Any thoughts? Have I lost my mind? Has Leitz lost theirs?

Yeah: fire the CEO (Cheeseburger Executive gOofball)!

Oh, it has come to my attention that he was nixed not too long ago

Well, they're stuck with his commitment and they have to honor it.

I still say "it's the rewind mechanism, stoop.d"; not the shutter.

Now, I don't know exactly what the production cost is for an M8; but if it's at or under $2000, yes, that fast-buck making idea should be somebody's demise.

Oh, right, he got fired.

[saxshooter]

If it was 2000 I'd buy one. A lot of people would, I guess. But how will they ever be able to make one for that money?

They can have Panasonic make it for them, as they are already making the Leica digital point and shoots.

What if they designed one around a DX format sensor (a lot cheaper and easier than a 1.3 crop or FF) with a trio of DX Summarits, equivalent to 28. 50, 90mm?

No, I disagree. Minimal R&D should be used in coming out with the cheaper camera. Use the current CCD, maybe improve/economize its circuitry to reduce production cost, put it in a plastic body and have Panasonic's factory put it out. Make it plastic. Keep the M mount, of course and put the red dot on it.

By doing this they will expand the user base of the current M mount lenses (which of course needs to be full frame to work with film cameras which they still sell -- Leica is not big enough to go the Nikon route with two lens lines) and with these new adopters of the M system via the cheap digital M, have the market ready for the M9.

The only hitch I see is Panasonic's reluctance to get involved in any interchangeable lens digital camera that isn't 4/3 system, which Panasonic is pushing, of course.

IMO the upgrade program is a real waste of their human resources and keeps the digital M system as an exclusive, expensive club with long repair/turnaround times. You would never see Canon going this route with their $8000 1Ds series... replacing the sensor, etc. And Canon is a much bigger company with much greater human resources!

Leica can only make more money by moving boxes, ie, selling cameras. Make a cheap digital M, move boxes, expand user base, sell lenses. I also have no problem with lenses being made outside of Germany. As long as they are good. That's not a hard task, look at Voigtlander's success.

Again, I am a current M8 user.

[BillP]

Oh goody, a Leica-bashing thread. Not had one of those for a day or two. All the armchair CEOs will be pleased.

Regards,

Bill

[Tom A]

Originally Posted by pesphoto

M8 for $1200....?
http://providence.craigslist.org/pho/668941851.html

Yeah, but remember you still have to pay for that $16-1800 upgrade on top of that.

[Bill Pierce]

Originally Posted by BillP

Oh goody, a Leica-bashing thread. Not had one of those for a day or two. All the armchair CEOs will be pleased.

Regards,

Bill

Oddly enough, I'm not a CEO. I'm a working stiff who would like to be able to continue to afford tools that have been a mainstay in that work since the M3 and M2 days. Actually, I can afford them. I am more worried about young photographers just starting out and essentially limiting themselves to one tool, the DSLR. The DSLR is incredibly versatile, but it doesn't do everything best.

Bill

[Harry Lime]

Exactly. It's not Leica bashing, but an expression of the frustration that as a tool for mere photographers, the M-series has been priced out of the market, for the vast majority of potential buyers.

I've purchased two M bodies and several lenses new, but that was many years ago, when prices were high, but not completely insane. I think I paid $1800 for my M6ttl. This was a store demo unit marked down from $2400, because it had a scratch on the top plate. I would have been willing to spend the full $2400, but got lucky that day. The M8 body is well over $5000 dollars, which is ridiculous for more than one reason.

Leica has reached the point where the pricing of their products, exceeds the value perceived by many customer, unless money is no object for said buyer.

[Ronald_H]

Originally Posted by Bill Pierce

Oddly enough, I'm not a CEO. I'm a working stiff who would like to be able to continue to afford tools that have been a mainstay in that work since the M3 and M2 days. Actually, I can afford them. I am more worried about young photographers just starting out and essentially limiting themselves to one tool, the DSLR. The DSLR is incredibly versatile, but it doesn't do everything best.

Bill

I know a few young photgraphers (I am just a middle aged hobbyist ). They often have or want a dSLR, but most of them explore the analog world as well. Needless to say, they don't buy Leicas. What do I see? Nikon FE and FM's, even a Pentax Spotmatic.

Yesterday I realized that even though my M2 + 'cron were relatively cheap, very few people would be willing to spend that amount of money on ANY sort of camera. I also realized that my beloved FM + 50mm 'E' cost me one tenth of my Leica set. And if I want to use cheap rangefinders, my Canonet was 20 euros, my Fed-5 a present...

As for new Leica stuff... only for people who have too much money...

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Originally Posted by Bill Pierce

Oddly enough, I'm not a CEO. I'm a working stiff who would like to be able to continue to afford tools that have been a mainstay in that work since the M3 and M2 days. Actually, I can afford them. I am more worried about young photographers just starting out and essentially limiting themselves to one tool, the DSLR. The DSLR is incredibly versatile, but it doesn't do everything best.

Bill

Exactly. I'm a working photographer too and I will never buy a new Leica, ever. Simply beyond anything I will ever be able to afford, and if I ever did become so wealthy, I'd still buy something whose pricing didn't insult my intelligence as a businessman.

When I was about to graduate from High School, my father bought me a new camera to take to art school. He got me a Nikon F4s with Nikon's AF-Nikkor 50mm f1.4 and the SB-25 flash. This was Nikon's top-line equipment at the time (1994) This setup was not cheap, and it was very widely used by working pros at the time. My family was pretty well off back then, but even for someone who could afford to buy his son a camera like the F4, the Leica was simply too expensive (the M6 was the Leica of the time). The body alone cost more than my whole F4s setup cost, and I'd have needed a lens for it. Since then, I have bought my own equipment and I have never made near what my father earned, and I am a professional photographer. I don't know a single pro who uses Leica, all of them I have ever met used Nikon, Canon, Mamiya, or Hasselblad. Even Hasselblads, costly as they were, were a bargain compared to an M6 and a 50mm f1.4 lens.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Chriscrawfordphoto

Even Hasselblads, costly as they were, were a bargain compared to an M6 and a 50mm f1.4 lens.

I don't know if I would go that far. I priced a Blad system, back when MF was still the format of choice for many studio shooters. Made a Leica look downright cheap...
their top of the line body (2xx?) with the zone system exposure system was around $10,000.

But things have changed. You can pick up a clean 5xx body, with back and the 2.8/80mm for $1000-1200.