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Voigtlander Bessa Leica Mount Cameras Made in Japan by Cosina in partnership with Voigtlander, the many modern Voigtlander Leica Screw Mount and Leica M mount bodies offer inexpensive and often unique options into entering the world of Leica rangefinder photography.

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Old 04-14-2008   #81
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A compact 28mm, around f/2.8 or f/2.4.
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Old 04-14-2008   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks View Post
Trouble is, you can't go a lot faster -- my 90/2 Summicron definitely stretches the Bessa's base-length too far -- and anything less than f/2 (e.g. f/2.5) doesn't really look that much faster from a marketing viewpoint. Actully, even an f/2.5 might be pushing their luck. There's no much sense in selling a Voigtländer lens that won't work well on Voigtländers.

Cheers,

R.
f1:2.5 would be fine, I’d risk an f1:2 in a crisis, as I suspect most people would.

Anyway although I understand how triangulation works and how base-length effects accuracy, I can’t actually see that difference through the VF, you see the same thing regardless of base length
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Slr
Old 04-14-2008   #83
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Slr

I agree with most of the above on RFs.

The question also referred to SLRs:

The recent Bessaflex was great and I believe Cosina probably still make (or at least designed - to be made in China or?) the same basic body (eg Nikon FM10) as the Bessa RF chassis - now selling at least in Japan under the Kenko name in Nikon, Pentax K and Contax/Yashica mounts.

It would seem to be the time to make a "multi-mount" digital body to take all those great lenses in "patent expired" mounts - Canon FD, Konica, Minolta MD, Olympus, Contax, 42mm - - not all mounts in one body but --

One production line for basic body with the standard Cosina shutter/mirror box/externals with a good quality but "no frills" digital sensor - no autofocus or live view or high speed or huge memory or big rear screen. Different mounts available and just the basic exposure automation appropriate to mount -- I believe there would be enough of a demand if you added together all the different groups of users/enthusiasts. It could even be a limited time production - as with some other Cosina ventures - an economical way to manufacture a special. I think there are enough baby boomers and others with lens collections and the money to afford a reasonable price.

Of course it would also tie in with the Cosina and Zeiss SL lens lines - increasing their sales.

Cosina did the equivalent for film cameras for many years.

I'd love full frame but I'm realistic - a Sony or Samsung 10-14MP 1.5x factor would be fine (especialy if they brought out a couple of Cosina wides in all mounts to suit). I believe much of the development cost is in good firmware - but I would hope that the sensor maker would sell a package, even if not their very latest version.

Just to show how nice some of the Kenko (Cosina?) films types can look - have any of you Nikon enthusiasts seen the Mapcamera (Japanese shop) limited edition Ai version with speeds to 1/4000, metal top plate, no name markings, price under 30,000 yen. Much more classy than the FM10.


Ah well - here's hoping - Photokina 2008 (at least under the counter).

I still use film mostly but I'd like the digital option with "manual" flavour.


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Old 04-14-2008   #84
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.... you see the same thing regardless of base length.

If I understand things correctly, the problem is that when the camera tells you things are in focus, based on the alignment of images in the viewfinder, it may actually be off. And that relates to the base length. When the images line up in an M2, it may be off by say X millimeters, but with an R2A it may be off by Y centimeters, where Y > X.
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Old 04-14-2008   #85
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i also like the tri skopar idea...25/35/50 would be sooo nice!
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Tri-Skopar...
Old 04-14-2008   #86
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Tri-Skopar...

Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i also like the tri skopar idea...25/35/50 would be sooo nice!
Ditto... even a dual Skopar, something that would allow us not to have to change lenses all the time.

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Old 04-14-2008   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkaoshi View Post
.... you see the same thing regardless of base length.

If I understand things correctly, the problem is that when the camera tells you things are in focus, based on the alignment of images in the viewfinder, it may actually be off. And that relates to the base length. .
That's exactly it. From experience, trying the 90/2 on the R-series, the focus is off as often as not -- at wide apertures, and under about 4-5 m. Personally I can't see the point of an f/2 lens where you have to hope it's in focus, possibly being tempted to risk (and lose) a shot because you're using a lens that is faster than your camera can reliably focus.

Of course it's a philosophical qiestion as well as technical, but Sparrow and I have different views on the former.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-14-2008   #88
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Wishing for three things:

1. For 35mm RF, a collapsible Ultron 35/1.7 or 35/2

2. For 35mm SLR, a set of modern lens for M42 mount (Zeiss have them, why not Cosina? )

3. For MF, definitely a modern Bessa RF 6x9 with Heliar. This can become a new trendsetter. Just have two models, one with the standard 105mm, the other, wider at 75mm maybe?
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Old 04-14-2008   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brachal View Post
Bring back the A-type double accessory shoe! Please!
Second on the A-type double accessory shoe.

And a +1 for the working mans Noct. a 50mm 1.0 to 1.2, something like that.
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Old 04-14-2008   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkaoshi View Post
.... you see the same thing regardless of base length.

If I understand things correctly, the problem is that when the camera tells you things are in focus, based on the alignment of images in the viewfinder, it may actually be off. And that relates to the base length. When the images line up in an M2, it may be off by say X millimeters, but with an R2A it may be off by Y centimeters, where Y > X.
If the base length is A B and the point of focus is C a triangle ABC is formed, in an M2 the angle at B formed by the lines AB and BC is greater than the same angle on an R2 so mathematically it would need to be calculated to a lesser degree to achieve the same accuracy, but I can’t see that angle through the VF they both look the same to me; it only has an impact on the tolerance the manufacturer has to achieve.
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Ok one more
Old 04-14-2008   #91
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Ok one more

I also think a think MF folder or MF Rangefinder with a 3 lens kit would be cool. The folder should have a coupled rangefinder, but no meter so it wouln't need batteries. The MF rangefinder could have all the goodies, a meter and AE. I would go for a 6x9 with format masks and a 35mm panorama adapter, all of the format brightlines would be visible in the viewfinder via a selector.
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Old 04-14-2008   #92
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1/ A Bessa CLE with metered manual and still maintaining the 28/40/90 frameline format.

2/ An M mount version of the 40mm f2 Ultron ASPH

3/ An M Mount 18mm f4 rather than the LTM mount prototype once considered but still compact taking 39mm filters

4/ New metal 21mm finder. Or a another mini finder with 21/25 framelines.

5/ A LTM or M Mount 50mm f3.5 Macro lens like the first Micro Nikkor in S mount using the optical formula from the legendary Heliar 50mm f3.5 (And yes before someone jumps on me that macro lenses aren't suitable with rangefinders, this may be true but its my Rangefinder I usually have with me and something closer focusing like the Leica Macro Elmar would be handy especially if you could use it as your standard lens as well. Cosina has come out with many ingenious solutions like the 21mm finder in the R4, I think if they put their minds too it they could find a great rangefinder macro or close focus solution as well.)
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Old 04-14-2008   #93
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Hopefully they don't bring anything I want
My wallet and visacard would be happy so, that said I would like a singlecoated Tessar or a Biotar lens in M mount. That would hopefully stop me from buying a Contax I in the future. A bit more seriously, a 50mm 1,2 would be really nice.

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Old 04-14-2008   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
... it only has an impact on the tolerance the manufacturer has to achieve.
Dear Stewart,

Exactly.

I was doing a little consultancy work for another manufacturer a while back -- medium format, not 35mm -- and as he pointed out, significantly tightening the tolerances can put prices up so far that no-one would buy the camera. Anyone can do it; the question is what it costs.

Much easier to start out with a much longer base length that allows lower tolerances at an affordable price. Even Leica had to use a rangefinder magnifier to make a 135/2.8 tolerable.

Cheers,

R.
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Old 04-14-2008   #95
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I think the time has come for a new half-frame RF. I don't care what mount, i'll find something to stick on it..

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Old 04-14-2008   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CameraQuest View Post

OK, everyone seems to want a digital Bessa, but that is probably not close.

Stephen
What a good news... this means we have hope..
"Probably not close" sounds like a plan!
Stephen pre-order one for me..
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Old 04-14-2008   #97
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Why a DSLR for old MF lenses? You can mount almost anything on a Canon 5D (except for Canon FD and Minolta I think). There's no way Cosina will be able to compete with Canon in this field. Cosina's strengths are finding gaps in the market.

Speaking of evil SLRs, I'd love to see some more Voigtlander lenses in EF mount with electronically controlled aperture (but metal barrels and manual focusing). There are a lot of people who don't mind focusing themselves, but who hate dealing with stop-down metering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avotius View Post
... all lenses produced should focus to .7 meter regardless as .9 is often a real barrier and the reason I didnt get the 50 nokton, 35 ultron, 50 sonnar, etc etc etc
Seconding this. I hate bumping into this sort of limitation.
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Old 04-14-2008   #98
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Why a DSLR for old MF lenses? You can mount almost anything on a Canon 5D (except for Canon FD and Minolta I think).
Now if they made a digital that could mount and use FL/FD - then I'd be very happy.

I'm still grumpy at Canon for abandoning even the hope of future support for the mount.
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Old 04-14-2008   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by back alley View Post
i also like the tri skopar idea...25/35/50 would be sooo nice!

Same here, 25-35-50 would be perfect.
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Old 04-14-2008   #100
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Yes, I would love to see a set of mini finders - 15, 18, 21, 24/25, such as the 28/35.
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Old 04-14-2008   #101
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I would like to see a camera with the viewfinder/rangefinder of the Zeiss Ikon but more affordable, and mechanical. Also, a body with 40mm lines for my Summicron-C that i can use with glasses.
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Old 04-14-2008   #102
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The Tri-Skopar is a great idea. I'd probably buy it at any lengths, but would prefer these two: 21-25-28 (or something wide like this for my r-d1) or the 28-35-50.

An m-mount 50/1.2 or 1.0.

A faster m-mount 21 or 25.

I find the idea of a MF, even if it's a fixed lens, pretty awesome as well. Instead of the texas leica, we'll need a better nick name.
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Old 04-14-2008   #103
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The 50mm f/1.4 or f/1.2 lens with minimum 0.7m focusing distance.
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Old 04-14-2008   #104
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maybe something for cosina and zeiss to talk about, a wide angle version of the Zeiss Ikon with a good rangefinder base length and in the same body so you could focus 50mm lenses with accurate results but still use something up to a 21 or maybe even the 18, is that rf coupled? I would buy one of those for an 18mm lens, but then again that r4a has sounded pretty interesting to me as well.
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Old 04-14-2008   #105
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I would really love to see Cv make an Updated Leica CL, That small, with the great CV LED meter read out on the back of the top plate. Either LTM or M and a range of new style Collapsible lens. in maybe 21,35,50mm And of course very affordable.
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Old 04-14-2008   #106
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So many good suggestions already. Just want to add my support for the following:

1. Fast(er) 50. ...edit. forgot to mention focus distance, .7M please.
2. Fast(er) 75
3. Longer EBL version of R series.
4. Compact fixed-lens RF.

Thanks for asking.

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Old 04-14-2008   #107
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ok, here's something else I've wanted for awhile....

I carry my OM1 pretty consistently for one main reason...close ups...at least close enough to get my own hands into the picture (about 1 ft).

So, I'd like a screw mount f2 collapsible heliar WITH a dedicated SOOKY/NOOKY-type close up attachment. This attachment will have MOVEABLE WINDOWS for use on any LTM/M camera.

My OM1 would stay home.
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Old 04-14-2008   #108
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Who said that Cosina should own Leica? Maybe that is what Mr. K. is dreaming about... and I think the overwhelming majority here would agree that a Cosina owned Leica would be the best thing that ever happened to them.

Zeiss wouldn't be that happy though...
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Old 04-14-2008   #109
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Quote:
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instead of another folder, cuz fuji's already doing that one, how about a tlr with ttl metering and AE?
My original request seems to have been hijacked. The Bessa III folder that I requested would be a digital one with a slightly cropped sensor, not a film camera.
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Old 04-15-2008   #110
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I would too like to see Tri-Skopar, albeit a wide angle version of it. 25-28-35/3.5 or so would be great, so that one (e.g. me ) could carry a fast 50 and equivalent of few slower wides in one package.

It could also make great kit lens for Bessa R4..
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Old 04-15-2008   #111
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having bought an olympus trip 35 recently, i realize the usefulness of a compact fixed lens camera. but i miss the manual selection of shutter speed and aperture, so my "ideal compact camera" is a mix of features of the oly and the rollei 35 series.

nice-to-have features:
- handsome (though this depends on personal taste)
- compact. the trip 35 is almost perfect to me!
- can work without batteries (mechanical shutter)
- shutter speed range B, 1/8 ... 1/500 (or more)
- leaf shutter
- tessar type lens, max aperture 2.8 would be acceptable
- my preferred FL is 40mm
- builtin exposure meter
- rangefinder not required with "slow" lens!

of course, max. aperture 1.8, or 1.4 might be interesting, though this will have a bad impact on compactness and price.

anyway, i see no chance for realization, as i assume the market is too thin and well covered by used gear (like canon/canonet, olympus 35xx, yashica and the likes).

so, i keep on dreaming.
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Old 04-15-2008   #112
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Now if they made a digital that could mount and use FL/FD - then I'd be very happy.

I'm still grumpy at Canon for abandoning even the hope of future support for the mount.
Yes this bothers me too. Later this year I am going to have the mount of a Sigma SD14 body converted to an FD mount so that I can use all of my many FD lenses on a digital body.
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Old 04-15-2008   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastel View Post
having bought an olympus trip 35 recently, i realize the usefulness of a compact fixed lens camera. but i miss the manual selection of shutter speed and aperture, so my "ideal compact camera" is a mix of features of the oly and the rollei 35 series.

nice-to-have features:
- handsome (though this depends on personal taste)
- compact. the trip 35 is almost perfect to me!
- can work without batteries (mechanical shutter)
- shutter speed range B, 1/8 ... 1/500 (or more)
- leaf shutter
- tessar type lens, max aperture 2.8 would be acceptable
- my preferred FL is 40mm
- builtin exposure meter
- rangefinder not required with "slow" lens!

of course, max. aperture 1.8, or 1.4 might be interesting, though this will have a bad impact on compactness and price.

anyway, i see no chance for realization, as i assume the market is too thin and well covered by used gear (like canon/canonet, olympus 35xx, yashica and the likes).

so, i keep on dreaming.
cheers
sebastian
You're right that this would be really cool, and right that there's no market. I was thinking a "Bessa Wide" with a 28mm fixed lens!
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Old 04-15-2008   #114
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A faster 21 mm or 18mm in screw mount (there are lots of Bessa R & L still around) would be great.
A dream camera, for me, would be a digital remake of the beautiful Vitessa with a fast 35or 40mm fixed lens ...
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Old 04-15-2008   #115
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oh great, now i can't stop thinking about a 25/35/50 tri skopar!!!

damn damn damn
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Old 04-15-2008   #116
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Definitely a faster 21. I sold my 21/4 because it wasn't great for me in low light: other than that I was fantastically happy with it. 21/2.8 would be fine, 21/2, well, we can dream.

I already have the Zeiss 25. I'm thinking maybe there's some mileage in having a faster 21 and a faster 25 for those people who don't want to buy both Zeiss (or Leica) wides.

Longer lenses, particularly around 50mm and 75mm, that focus to 0.7m rather than 0.9m or 1m. It's been a dealbreaker to me as it has been for posters above.

As for 50/1.2, yes, I think this could make a lot for Voigtlander. Our alternatives are the Hexanon, the Noctilux and something like the Zunow, any one of which is worth more than most people's entire lens collections. Well, maybe not on this board...

I think there's also some more mileage in screw-in vented lens hoods that curve in nicely. After all, a lot of people seem to be ebaying for them. A 40.5 might get sales from people buying Jupiters.

Finally, if Mr K is listening, thank you so much. You're the reason I could afford to get into rangefinders in the first place, and though I've fallen for the 35mm Nokton, I still think the Ultron was much better than the 35/1.4 Nikkor - a lens I loved - that it replaced. The whole Voigtlander achievement's seriously impressive, and now the R4 which solves a problem RF shooters have had for decades. And given the Nokton, perhaps something like a 50/1.2, 75/1.2 or 18/2.5 makes sense as a flagship that even the Leica diehards have to have.
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Old 04-15-2008   #117
jwhitley
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Another thought, less grandiose than my last: Change the trigger winder and the side-grip to add slots compatible with the Arca-Swiss quick-release system... so no added quick-release plate is necessary with either. Nicely rounded like the Really Right Stuff quick-release plates, so it all remains friendly to the hand.
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Old 04-15-2008   #118
amateriat
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I'll second Majid's request for a CL-sized M body. Together with a (black) 50 f/2 Heliar collapsible, you're talking seriously small.

One blue-sky wish: while Konica was still kicking, I made known to them my wish for a 75-135 f/3.5 "dualie" as a companion to their 21-35 M-Hex. Never happened, obviously. I still like the idea, and can't help but think it would require less in the way of engineering chops to pull off than the 21-35 did.


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Old 04-15-2008   #119
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A new and improved version of the Bessa R would be nice. All metal construction with a 1:1 viewfinder would be a start. Plus a longer range finder baseline, like contax II style. Meterless with a mechanical shutter would also be good.
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Old 04-15-2008   #120
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Mmmm ... 28/50/90 Tri-Skopar? <G,D & R>

Nah, I'd really rather a nice collapsible C-mount Tessar. Though a real Bessa III would also be to die for...



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