Erwin on Leicas future

[veraikon]

There is an article by the well know Leica defender Erwin Puts
http://www.imx.nl/photo/viewpoint/th...e_dares_t.html
about Leicas future .

The Handelsblatt (German journal for economic affairs) article that is mentioned in, is called “"Der leidenschaftliche Leica-Liebhaber"
http://www.handelsblatt.com/News/Kar...liebhaber.html

[digitalintrigue]

Or, the Leica RF is at the end at the prices they currently are trying to sell them.

[Ken Ford]

Whoa. Doom and gloom.

But I have mine, and I'm confident B&W film will be available for my lifetime. I may have to buy it at an art supply store, but the medium will exist.

[Hacker]

Cold hard fact:

"The latest move at PMA to ask attention for two lenses that are in production for several years is a weak marketing move. It may indicate Leica’s desperation for attention in the market."

[hlockwood]

Originally Posted by veraikon

There is an article by the well know Leica defender Erwin Puts
http://www.imx.nl/photo/viewpoint/th...e_dares_t.html
about Leicas future .

The Handelsblatt (German journal for economic affairs) article that is mentioned in, is called “"Der leidenschaftliche Leica-Liebhaber"
http://www.handelsblatt.com/News/Kar...liebhaber.html

When I was at my local shop a couple of days ago, the owner told me that he is trying to sell out his Leica stock because nothing is moving off the shelves. Sales of MP/M7 and M8 are dead. He suggested he would offer an "incentive" toward the sale of Leica M products.

This seems to confirm Puts's analysis at the local level. Very disheartening.

Harry

[ferider]

How can you even adress Leica's operational success (or lack thereof)
without considering Leica's pricing policy ?

CV and Zeiss demonstrate that RFs are not dead. The problem is somewhere
else (if there is one).

[Frank Petronio]

I think there are plenty of new Leica users -- young photographers love them -- but they are buying used Leicas. Until they start making more retired dentists and lawyers, their aren't going to be many new customers who will buy new Leicas.

If I want to use 35mm there's a huge supply of used Leicas to buy, and it would be hard for them to further improve on the film camera design... so...

[Mark Wood]

Sensibly guarded comments about the M System's future from Leica themselves:

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...ws_184829.html

[digitalintrigue]

Firing Mr. Lee isn't going to change anything.

It's a tough market out there, they are competing against far larger companies with immense technical advantages, and their number one market has a currency valuation problem.

I don't think RF is dead by any means; that said, the manufacturing cost of the products needs to be severely reduced, so they can be sold at reasonable prices.

Is this possible? Perhaps not.

As I said in another thread, Nikon needs to buy Leica. But, this would have to be more than just a sentimental purchase. What does Leica have that anyone else needs? Perhaps some optical technology? But if it's optical technology that can't be manufactured at price where the technology will sell, is there any value at all?

[back alley]

reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated...

welcome to rangefinder forum...maybe you have heard of us?

joe

[kully]

Originally Posted by digitalintrigue

Or, the Leica RF is at the end at the prices they currently are trying to sell them.

Indeed, I completely disagree with him on the 'RF concept' being dead - I'm 28, I started thinking about my photo snapping two years ago and came to RFs anything else. Looking at forum users there are teenagers coming to RFs now.

However, the 'Leica RF' I can see going, there are so many old bodies in circulation that you can pick up an M6 for 1/3 the price of an MP/M7. They're [m7/m8] not unaffordable, but the difference in feel vs. price is hard to justify for many (including me).

If they are, I hope Leica stops listening to the photo geeks and taps into the the 'cachet' of their name, making _the_ most expensive cameras for rich people to wear as 'bling', perhaps a heavy, brass bodied, well finished AF digital compact the shape and size of a barnack?. Then, hopefully, they could keep the M-series alive as a side business.

[parsec1]

I have mine, I love using them,most of my better pics were/are shot on them and they will still be useable long after my demise so Who gives a shxt.

[sooner]

I hesitate to comment on yet another negative thread. I mean, jeez, why are WE of all people constantly beating the drum of the death of all things rangefinder and film? Hey, look up in the sky, is that a star or really a huge asteroid hurling towards an apocalypse on earth? But seriously, I find it mysterious to talk about the demise of Leica when they insist on pricing their product way out of the realm of users like myself. It's like complaining that toasters are obsolete because no one wants to buy premium toasters for $999. Unless the Leica allure is purely socio-economic, like a Jaguar car (face it, nobody buys a Jag 'cause it's a great car), I would think some improved pricing would help sales.

[digitalintrigue]

Leica has to go completely digital, and keep improving the product, so that customers have incentive to buy new models. That's the way all the other camera makers have to do it, to guarantee continuing cash flow. Gotta get on the product development treadmill. If that treadmill stops, well, I don't need to say more.

The RF is not dead by any means. There are millions of cameras being sold every year that have optical viewfinders. None of them are manual focus, and none of them sell for $3695.

For Leica to survive they have to update the RF to something modern (i.e. imagine a digital RF with Live View and autofocus) but I'm not sure they have the engineering ability or enough money to make it happen. That requires a huge investment, they'd have to redesign all their lenses, not just the bodies.

And at the same time, they'd have to cut manufacturing costs drastically. I'm not sure this can be done by Leica alone, they need to be acquired by a company that has enough muscle.

[Ade-oh]

I think he's absolutely right. Leica can survive if they make interesting, innovative cameras that people want to buy, but they won't be rangefinders, they need to be something new. In a perfect world, they would continue to produce small numbers of M rangefinders and lenses (mainly to keep me happy) alongside whatever product it is that restores their fortunes but they will not re-establish themselves by making manual focus rangefinder cameras, digital or analogue.

[digitalintrigue]

Well put, Fred.

The question is, does Leica have the technical ability and the load of cash necessary to modernize the RF concept. And manufacture it so it's an $1800 D300 alternative, not $5500.

[icebear]

Originally Posted by sooner

....It's like complaining that toasters are obsolete because no one wants to buy premium toasters for $999.... .

ROFL - my wife scored a 4 slot Dualit toaster slightly dented for $69 some years ago in a Williams Sonoma outlet - you can call that a user . New it's something like $400.

[digitalintrigue]

No, history is not enough. That's being proven out.

Passionate defenders? Possibly. They'd have to do it like Apple does. That takes cash (Apple has 18 billion of that) and vision (there aren't many Steve Jobs.)

And absolutely, emra, they'd have to put money into the service end, too.

[icebear]

Hi folks,

there was an interesting article in the NYT Feb.26,2008 (yesterday) on closing doors :
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/sc...ce&oref=slogin
Hope the link works (othewise go to NYT : science section " Advantage of closing doors")

It's about focussing on some important options/projects and shutting down others in order to free capacity. Making decisions on priorities and follow the decisions consequently. There is a number of test designs that shows how reluctant the human mind is to let go of options because this is perceived as a loss.

Leica should let go of MP/M7, maybe finish production runs with stock material and than close that door and LOCK IT UP. That's it end of this raod after half a century. Move on.

I think this might be an option to survive. Many will mourn and cry but hey who gives sh... do these go into the shop and order a NEW M7/MP - no they don't.

[navilluspm]

I do not shoot Leica because I can not afford it. There is one way Leica can breath life into the M system: Have Panasonic develop a digital M-Mount RFcamera for under $1000 with the M8 sized sensor.

If this were to ever happen, I bet your bottom dollar that interest in RFs would soar! There are people who are interested in pocketable quality for an affordable price.

[digitalintrigue]

Originally Posted by icebear

It's about focussing on some important options/projects and shutting down others in order to free capacity. Making decisions on priorities and follow the decisions consequently. There is a number of test designs that shows how reluctant the human mind is to let go of options because this is perceived as a loss.

Indeed.

Case in point, Apple again. Newton, LaserWriters, etc. Ditched by Jobs when he came back to Apple, so the company could focus on the core. It took a year for the new products to hit the market (iMac) and the subsequent ten years speak for themselves.

[sooner]

Sitemistic, as you point out, we don't actually know how well CV or Zeiss is doing with sales, so I don't see why you would imply that CV is NOT selling well. I guess I prefer to describe the glass as half full. And my point isn't so much that Leica would sell millions of Leicas if they just dropped their price, but rather that more of the rangefinder niche market (like me) could afford their product. In other words, better pricing means better penetration of their niche market, whereas now they leave at least hundreds of guys like me craving their product but unable to spend that kind of money. And as you point out, in a small market can they afford to leave some hundreds of thousands of dollars of product unsold?

[nextreme]

Originally Posted by sooner

Sitemistic, as you point out, we don't actually know how well CV or Zeiss is doing with sales, so I don't see why you would imply that CV is NOT selling well. I guess I prefer to describe the glass as half full. And my point isn't so much that Leica would sell millions of Leicas if they just dropped their price, but rather that more of the rangefinder niche market (like me) could afford their product. In other words, better pricing means better penetration of their niche market, whereas now they leave at least hundreds of guys like me craving their product but unable to spend that kind of money. And as you point out, in a small market can they afford to leave some hundreds of thousands of dollars of product unsold?

I agree here - there is definitely a market for a mid priced digital rangefinder.

[digitalintrigue]

Yes, I suggested Nkon buy Leica in another thread.

Does Leica have intellectual property that Nikon could use? Unknown, but possibly. Leica isn't worth much to Nikon in terms of the potential for profit with the current product line, so it would only be worth the name, and whatever IP.

But I disagree that Leica should just be put on a conventional digital camera. There are already loads of those.

The key is to revamp the rangefinder concept into something modern, and manufacture it at a price where it can be sold as a true alternative to the dslr. It can be done...maybe not by Leica themselves.

As far as CV goes, they don't have the dealer base to sell big numbers. This is something else Nikon brings, a worldwide distribution channel. They also have the history of doing unusual things, like the S3 and SP rangefinder re-issues, which is why I use them as the example. Panasonic may have engineering and money but they don't have the name cachet or the channels.

Of course, if Nikon wanted to design a modern RF, they wouldn't need to buy Leica to do it.

[FPjohn]

Just a note. A local , Madison WI, camera store told me they do sell M8s with ease and that they reorder to fill the demand.

yours
FPJ