Bought My 1St folder, felt I have been cheated.

[scottyb70]

I bought my first folder on EBAY from a trusted and respectable person (I was hoping) I will keep their name private due to respect.

Here is the story.

I bought a camera with buy it now and it was a very fair amount that I paid for this folder. I did not bargain or anything. I recieved the camera and it wasn't the one that was listed on EBAY. I checked the pictures of the camera on ebay and the serial numbers didn't match on the lens. I sent the person an email stating the situation. They told me that the reason they sent me the one I have is because it is in better condition than the one listed on ebay. Why didn't they tell me this in before they sent it out. I was going back and forth on emails and requested the one that was listed. I was very polite and patient. They told me to keep the one I have it is just like the one that was shown on the ebay auction. I feel the one on ebay is a little better. I was comparing the two by looking at the pictures of the auction (only 2 left) the rest were deleted.
Now I feel if I send this one back will the one that I should have got be worse. After admitting he sent me the wrong one he will only give me credit if the camera he sent me was his. This was the second time I ever bought a folder and how could I have one similar to this one, it is kinda of a rare camera.

What should I do, ask for a partial credit and leave at that? The camera was in the 350-400 area.

If he did this to me, just picture who else he did this to. That is probably why he tries to delete the pictures right after auction.

Am I wrong here?

I trusted this person that is why I had no problem with the buy it now.


Any advise would be appreciated.

[david b]

Remember what it said when you hit the buy it now?

It is a legally binding contract and the seller did not keep up his end of that contract.

If you really want the one in the photo, get it.

Or just send the one he sent you, back to him.

Look for another one.

[scottyb70]

The auction started at 10.00 and had a buy it now for 335.00.

[tripod]

What make and model of folder was it? Why do you think the one pictured was better than the one you got? Was it just cosmetics, or different specs (like lens type)?

[colyn]

If the one you got is in good working and cosmetic condition why not just keep it.

Granted the seller pulled a switch but you take a chance of getting one in lesser condition if you insist on trading..

[peterm1]

Legally of course, you are in the right. He has not delivered the camera you have contracted to buy and should have been up front with you about this before if for some reason he was unable to deliver on the contract - maybe the shop boy sent the camera you bought to someone else. Who knows but he should have been square with you.

If it truly was a mistake and if your statement is correct...."After admitting he sent me the wrong one he will only give me credit if the camera he sent me was his. " then I would send him another email stating the serial number of the camera you bought and maybe a photo of it, asking him to acknowledge it is the camera he sent you then seek confirmation that he will credit you or send the camera you asked for. This suggests that it could be a mix up, and he had more than one camera and sent you the wrong one by mistake. In which case he should be keen to rectify the error in a way that leaves you happy with the outcome. If I were you I might also indicate that you will report him to eBay if he reneges. Of course if he is a shonky dealer there is a risk that he will renege and take that risk. But hopefully not.

Alternatively you could ask him to send you all the photos of the eBay camera so you can put your mind at rest regarding condition.

eBay is a bit like the wild west and you are forced to take people more or less on trust. I have one or two experiences where products have turned up not exactly as described - usually by omission of course and my imagination has wrongly filled in the blanks. But these have all been inexpensive items and in each case I have put it down to experience. I am more careful when buying anything expensive to (a) deal with people with a high number of transactions and a high approval rating and (b) for preference deal with stores who I have seen on the bay before and who I there have reason to believe are genuine. If I break these "rules" I know I may be disappointed.

[scottyb70]

I really didn't mean rare. It is a certo 6 and I would say cosmetics has a lot to do with it that is why I didn't hesitate about paying for what he was asking. I felt the one pictured was very clean like stated. I am not looking for mint. I know it is a very old camera.
I have a question about the focusing. When looking through the rangefinder the closest I can get the camera to an object is about 2-3 feet (>1 meter) before the lens focuses properly. Is this right? I can't ask the seller about this because I have lost my trust.

The main reason why it bugs me is because this person will say I can help you, I am the best,Trust Me, no problems, blah blah. Had articles about him, etc.


Who else do you think he could have done this to besides me?

(a) deal with people with a high number of transactions and a high approval rating and (b) for preference deal with stores who I have seen on the bay before and who I there have reason to believe are genuine. If I break these "rules" I know I may be disappointed.

I did this and guess you still have to be careful.

Kind of makes me want to start back into digital now.

[scottyb70]

hard to find manual

[dnk512]

Rangefinders from that era focus from 3 feet, or 5 feet to infinity. You bought a Certo 6 from Certo6 :-). Lots of folks are happy with his work, but some folks are not so happy. If the camera you have is not working send it back for repair. If the cosmetics are not up to par with his images on e-bay ask for a fair refund on the difference. The former he will honor, the later.... not sure.

[imajypsee]

to expect to get the merchandise you paid for. But, I don't think you will.
I've had a few exchanges with certo6 and here's what I think about him:
* he's starting to believe his own press (which he himself writes) and, apparently, so did you.... his feedback rating would seem like it makes sense to believe him, so I can't see why you should be faulted for trusting him.
* he once posted a Weltur for auction and the camera was a Weltax; when I pointed that out to him he just blew it off....
* I've tried to buy from him directly because I get tired of the bidding process and he never answers my emails regarding the specific camera I want (and, why should he since he can sell it on ebay for astronomical prices?)
* his "success" in his cornering the niche market on folders on ebay has got the better of him and, I'm guessing here, he's overwhelmed and can't keep up. OTOH, he's making his money while the sun shines.

Anyhow, I'd just learn how to use the camera and write off certo6. You won't win since he clearly states that he doesn't do refunds and he seems to suspect your camera isn't really the one he shipped you (if I'm reading your posts correctly) so he's going to resist your efforts at redress.

Regarding a manual, here's a link I found on the forum here:
http://www.certo6.com/images/certo6i...structions.pdf

Good luck,
Mary in Florida

[drewbarb]

Is it possible that although the one pictured might have looked better cosmetically, but the one he sent you is functionally in better condition? Perhaps that the basis for his claim.

Regardless, you do have every right to expect to receive what you think you are paying for, and the seller is obligated to fix the situation to your satisfaction.

As for the focus distance, 2-3 feet sounds about right- but you'd have to look up the manufacturer's specifications to find the exact closest coupled-focus distance.

[whitecat]

IF.... the seller was Certo 6 I would be careful. His prices are high and I already had to send one camera back after a CLA since It would not fire. It took months to return. I also bought a filter for $30.00 and never got it. When I complained, he sent another but made it sound like I was cheating him.
I have had 3 Certo's. An excellent one is worth no more than $200.00- $250.00. For this price, the rangefinder should be clear and the distance gauge on top should work. For questions about the camera, PM me. If it were me, I would have sent it back.

[Malcolm_J]

You should also post this query on the Qustions and Answers forum on eBay. A lot of experienced sellers visit that regularly and would give sound advice.

Read carefully the conditions presented on the sale. Genuine sellers state "this is the item you will get". If that was not the case here then that weakens your argument.

The problem with any commercial transaction is that if it goes well you take it for granted but if it goes badly it really sours you. I have been through similar experiences to yourself (although not for such expensive items) so that has made me more careful

Also consider whether the item you got is good value and works well. If that is the case, then my advice is;just walk away from it and enjoy your new camera; I have found with eBay (and life in general) that there is rarely much to be gained by nursing a grievence if things have worked out basically OK.

You do not have to leave feedback, after all.

[Steve Bellayr]

It is not a question as to whether the items workds well or not. Rather, it is one of "bait and switch" a transaction that is illegal. Obviously, the buyer desired the one that was shown on ther internet photo. Is is possible that he wanted it because of the serial number? There are instances where that was a factor...one was listed here with an incredibly unusual serial number. Probably not. Nevertheless, if a photo is presented then it should be of the item auctioned. I recall that more than once on this forum that such an issue was called into question. I'd like to thank the original poster for calling this to our attention and all others that added comments. This certainly is an issue that is important to all of us. By reading posters coomments I have discovered and made wonderful purchases. Should the original poster desire he can post comments on photo.net & resellerratings.com I hope that this camera works out for you as folders of that age are difficult to come by.

[Thardy]

I'd send it back, if he takes it. Of all the cameras I have, the 120 folder I bought last year is the only one that disappoints. I don't think you'll be missing anything.

[FallisPhoto]

Originally Posted by dnk512

Rangefinders from that era focus from 3 feet, or 5 feet to infinity. You bought a Certo 6 from Certo6 :-). Lots of folks are happy with his work, but some folks are not so happy. If the camera you have is not working send it back for repair. If the cosmetics are not up to par with his images on e-bay ask for a fair refund on the difference. The former he will honor, the later.... not sure.

The former he will honor sometimes. I've run into a few folks who were not at all happy with him.

[FallisPhoto]

Originally Posted by scottyb70

I bought my first folder on EBAY from a trusted and respectable person (I was hoping) I will keep their name private due to respect.

Here is the story.

I bought a camera with buy it now and it was a very fair amount that I paid for this folder. I did not bargain or anything. I recieved the camera and it wasn't the one that was listed on EBAY. I checked the pictures of the camera on ebay and the serial numbers didn't match on the lens. I sent the person an email stating the situation. They told me that the reason they sent me the one I have is because it is in better condition than the one listed on ebay. Why didn't they tell me this in before they sent it out. I was going back and forth on emails and requested the one that was listed. I was very polite and patient. They told me to keep the one I have it is just like the one that was shown on the ebay auction. I feel the one on ebay is a little better. I was comparing the two by looking at the pictures of the auction (only 2 left) the rest were deleted.
Now I feel if I send this one back will the one that I should have got be worse. After admitting he sent me the wrong one he will only give me credit if the camera he sent me was his. This was the second time I ever bought a folder and how could I have one similar to this one, it is kinda of a rare camera.

What should I do, ask for a partial credit and leave at that? The camera was in the 350-400 area.

If he did this to me, just picture who else he did this to. That is probably why he tries to delete the pictures right after auction.

Am I wrong here?

I trusted this person that is why I had no problem with the buy it now.


Any advise would be appreciated.

Then why did you give him positive feedback? Yeah, I found the auction on ebay.

[remegius]

Interesting. I just received and Isolette II from seller in question, and it arrived precisely as I ordered. Of course, I didn't get it from him on eBay, nor would I. I simply ordered it from him off his web site, after having communicated my desires (I wanted the Isolette with the red bellows). The camera arrived looking for all intents and purposes as it did when it was new. I couldn't be more pleased.

Cheers...

[George Bonanno]

Jurgen screwed me "twice" on a CLA.

Never again !!!

[underbyte]

In 2007, I sent him 2 emails to ask about having an Isolette II CLA'd. He never responded. I would be hesitant to deal with him.

[semrich]

For what it's worth I just bought two folders (Agfa Super Isolette and a Zeiss Super Ikonta IV with working meter) from Jurgen also directly from his website. I sent him e-mail with questions, received prompt answers, sent him a check, and got two clean almost like new cameras. The Super Isolette works fine and takes fantastic pictures, the Super Ikonta and meter seems to work fine, I'll find out tomorrow after I develop two rolls I've taken with it.

[chippy]

Originally Posted by FallisPhoto

Then why did you give him positive feedback? Yeah, I found the auction on ebay.

i cant speak for scottyb (i have no idea what was going thru his head)...but i have many times given positive feedback when it could of easily or should of rated negative or at least the grey one. especialy when one has a low score who wants a red mark against them.

early on i had all sorts of trouble from sellars, to begin with, simply allowing me to bid because of a low tranaction count (albeit 100%). i had to send money orders across the world instead of ppal or appeal to them that i was genuine or missed out being alowwed to bid at all and then cross my fingers they would send it and all be good. ........sellers in most instances want feedback left first before they recipricate...if one leaves negative feedback for a seller then as sure as a fly blown sheep is uncomfortable and craves the aerogaurd,,then the seller will leave red feedback.

who in their right mind, if a vintage folder fanatic, would want the GOD of folders seller's, restoration and repairs leaving a negative feedback against them!

should they --yes-- but it doesnt always work that way hey!

i once recieved a weltur of the afore mentioned from eb*y--took a long long time before i got it, months, was guarunteed bellows light tight as he writes over and over againin the advert. upon recieving guess what---bloody pinholes!

(btw once this was all done it was far too late to leave feedback-90 days expired)

he said he did not beleive it but would take me at my word and proposed to assist me in fixing them...that turned out more difficult than first thought so he offered me a replacment camera, nicer with unequivocally guaranteed good light tight bellows, he said he checked them with a 300 watt lamp!. cool i thought as it was nicer cosmectically, and the first had other significant problems too, rangefinder malajusted and a disk thingy that gets loose on these things and prevents from being able to open the film loading bay, hence cant use the camera. new camera arrives-- looks heaps better--great. well the bellows had a tear in them more than 10mm long, (blind freddy would not have seen it but would of felt the howling wind blow through the gapping hole!) in a crease on the bottom, so not obvious without knowing it was there at first. as i said to him,,perhaps 300 watts is a sledge hammer approach, as all i used was a small pen torch and it lit up my darkroom through the bellows imediately!


he again said he did not beleive it (went on longer than that i assure you),,simply impossible as he checked them! but had no reason to doubt my word so he told me to rip off the bellows from the first, cut a slither that matched the portion to be repaired and glue it on. if that didnt work then he said he would replace the bellows . by this time i am starting to worry (for him and me, him loosing money and me getting dud cameras) because out of a buch of cameras i purchased from hin a seperate transaction (got discount for multiple purchase) arriving around the same time, each had its own significant problems.

i did rip the bellows of the first and in the process got to see how it was built ...and then was concerned because to replace the bellows on a weltur looks far more difficult than an isolette for example, because it appears the bellows are sandwiched between body frames that are rivited. In the mean time (not that he knew i had already begun the proceedure) he writes back and says just send them both back and he will repair it himself with a patch and if ness new bellows. i prefered the option he gave me to replace the bellows obviously but now i am loosing faith whether the job will be done correctly after seeing the how the weltur is put together. i ask all the right questions as to how he will exchange new bellows if nessarsary but dont get satifactory answers.

so by now i am afraid i will be out of pocket (postage etc) and without a weltur for who knows how long!! and who knows what sort of repair i get upon return. so i fix it myself unhappily (i would want new bellows of course) and sent the first back. that camera showed up on ebay days later with new bellows (i had ripped the old one out to fix the second weltur) and sold for a pretty dollar, the results of the new bellows instalation are below, it was obvious that it was not done correctly (have pictures to prove it! of the open back camera) and the new owner eventually after negotiation recieved a settlement and returned the camera. the weltur (or the best part of it) then appeared again on ebay days later with bellows fixed (so it looked) and sold again. each time apparently the rangefinder was said to worked on for hours! hmmm.

ah well what do ya do--prefer to think i just has unbelivable bad luck-but virtually every single camera with fault is difficult to take

i dont doubt that as someone said on here in the past 'he probably does more good than bad'--so that is a good thing hey! and no doubt for every bad one there are good ones as well (makes one wonder tho whether they happen to be good to begin with)

so i cant help but agree with Mary- it seemed to me he has little time, and is pressed. god know (differnet god!) after multiple dozens of emails exchanged and reminded each time he still got my name wrong 90% of the time (yet its written on the top and bottom of the emails-cant miss).

also had emails gone unanswered as well

remegius thats great..you might want to give them a run with film first. but they are what his 'thing' started with according to what he says, and they are dead easy cameras to work on. although i got one of these as well from him fully refurbished as he does,, and it arrived with frozen solid rangefinder---easy fixed with a replacment rangefinder (which he did send me) or doing the job, but one wonders if he is simply under too much pressure to check his own work as closely as should be.


Had the same thing as someone mentioned earlier- payed for filters and never recieved them(have reciepts and emails to prove). also he never refunded the postage costs as he said he would (also in emails)

[wallace]

I have sent 5 folders for a CLA to Mr. Kreckel. All of them came back with faults.
I have been deeply disapointed. Never again!!!! Be aware!

[FallisPhoto]

Originally Posted by chippy

i cant speak for scottyb (i have no idea what was going thru his head)...but i have many times given positive feedback when it could of easily or should of rated negative or at least the grey one. especialy when one has a low score who wants a red mark against them.

early on i had all sorts of trouble from sellars, to begin with, simply allowing me to bid because of a low tranaction count (albeit 100%). i had to send money orders across the world instead of ppal or appeal to them that i was genuine or missed out being alowwed to bid at all and then cross my fingers they would send it and all be good. ........sellers in most instances want feedback left first before they recipricate...if one leaves negative feedback for a seller then as sure as a fly blown sheep is uncomfortable and craves the aerogaurd,,then the seller will leave red feedback.

That doesn't necessarily follow. I have 100% positive feedback and I've left maybe half a dozen negative and neutral feedbacks under this name and maybe 20 under another. I make a practice of leaving negative feedback if I feel that the seller has deleiberately tried to deceive me. If I think it was just stupidity, but the seller won't rectify the situation, then I leave neutral feedback. Otherwise, I leave positive feedback. I pay the same day I win, I try to work out my problems with the seller, if I have any, and only if this doesn't work do I resort to negative or neutral feedback.

Originally Posted by chippy

who in their right mind, if a vintage folder fanatic, would want the GOD of folders seller's, restoration and repairs leaving a negative feedback against them!

Someone who is honest, who isn't impressed, and who would take being called a liar (twice) very seriously indeed? Seriously, I think Jurgen makes good bellows, but, judging by what I have read about him here and elsewhere, I believe that is his only real camera-related talent. I would rate our own Rick Oleson WAY higher for pretty much anything else (and, for all I know, Rick may fold a mean bellows himself). Hell, I'd even rate myself higher for doing the other stuff. I'm a whole lot slower than Rick, or even Jurgen, but I'm not slipshod and I've heard enough to convince me that your so-called god is.

Originally Posted by chippy

... it appears the bellows are sandwiched between body frames that are rivited.

It is. Instead of undoing four screws, you just peel back the leather from the front and drill out four rivets, that's all. There is a company on ebay that sells aluminum rivets for "Hot Wheels" toy cars at about $1.50 for 50 of them. When you get the bellows put in, you use a hammer and dolly to set the new rivets, file them off smooth and glue the leatherette back down over them. It's a little more trouble than an Agfa's screws, but not overwhelming. You can run into real problems with some of the early Billy Records though. With those, you have the rivets AND you have to remove the tripod socket too, to get that back piece out (the difficult part is that it is really hard to get a grip on that socket, because they beveled the damned thing -- it is kind of like the greased pig of camera repair).

[imajypsee]

asking for a specific camera and he answered the first with a query about what camera I was referring to, etc. I emailed him again on the 28th and still have no answer. His customer skills are pathetic.

Originally Posted by remegius

Interesting. I just received and Isolette II from seller in question, and it arrived precisely as I ordered. Of course, I didn't get it from him on eBay, nor would I. I simply ordered it from him off his web site, after having communicated my desires (I wanted the Isolette with the red bellows). The camera arrived looking for all intents and purposes as it did when it was new. I couldn't be more pleased.

Cheers...