M8 Future

[ernesto]

Hello You all!

I have not an M8, yet.
It bothers me the idea of a small sensor, as I am a wide angle shooter.
My favourites are 12mm and 15mm, sometimes I use a 21mm too.
I know that the M8 sensor will reduce my superwides.

Anyway, my questions are:

1) When was introduced the M8?
2) How much time is needed to have a full frame Leica?
3) Should I wait for the M9 or just go with the M8?

I know that these questions are for someone that can see future, but I will be happy to know your guess as Leica users.

Thanks in advance!

Ernesto

[Mike Ip]

Frankly, Ernesto, if you want a digital rangefinder, just buy the M8 now. I had pondered this idea for the greater part of the last 5 months and just sucked it up and bought one two weeks ago. No regrets at all. I also shoot canon digitals, and a lot of people are always waiting for the new model to come. I feel if you keep waiting and waiting, you'll just waste time - time in which you could be shooting!

[n8b]

Would you consider the Epson RD1 for a digital rangefinder? It's about half the cost and it will accept Leica lenses. I'm thinking about going this route due to the cost of the M8.

Nate

[infocusf8@earthlink.]

Ernesto,
The M8 has an APS H sized sensor which is the next size down from full frame. As has been stated it has a 1.3X crop factor. It is doubtfull that Leica will issue a full frame sensor camera any time soon but when PMA and Photokina come around rumors abound which mostly are fanciful thinking. I asked our Leica rep if anything new was in the offing for PMA and he said it was going to be very boring for him. Occasionally a Canon fanatic, who neither owns or uses the M8, will creep in here and try to tell you that a Rebel produces as good of an image as the M8. The same people will argue that the sensor size in the Canon 5D being larger than the M8 relates to better image quality due to the size difference and will also try to convince you that the Rebel's APS C size sensor (smaller than an M8) gives better image quality than the larger M8 sensor. It too is fanciful thinking. The M8 sensor was specifically developed for optimal image quality from Leitz lenses and the Canon sensor is a generic sensor designed to give good image quality with either film camera lenses or DX lenses, the primary sharpening and image correction done by the digic processor. As far as waiting for the M9 it is unlikely that much will change except MP which will go up as will the price of the camera. As one person stated here you can keep waiting for the perfect camera and miss a lot of good photography with the M8. The M8 is an excellent photographic tool that will provide you with years of satisfying photography.

[kevin m]

The DMR is several year old technology that really can't compete with the Xti's 10mp sensor.

Other way around. The XTI is a new sensor that can't compete with the DMR, in terms of image quality, anyway.

[Mike Ip]

OK here's another quasi-off-topic question. Why doesn't the DMR, which doesn't have an AA-filter NOT require IR Cut filters, but the M8 does? How radically different is the sensor of the M8 that it requires the need?

[BillBlackwell]

Here's a prediction (not based on any direct knowledge):

Within the next 12-months, Leica will introduce the M9 on a smaller platform compared with the M8 (perhaps approximating the size of an M6 classic), with a 16+ mega pixel sensor, the same 1.33x cropped sensor, lower noise at the higher ISO settings, and priced similarly to today’s M8 (say, $6,000). The M8 will then remain as a reduced cost (say, $4,500) alternative.

Although some are predicting a full-frame sensor for the M9, I would see this as highly unlikely. But one never knows.

Since M8 sales have virtually come to a screeching halt, Leica certainly couldn't hurt itself by announcing the M8's predecessor by showing a prototype at this month’s PMA show.

[kuzano]

Dictates a somewhat more expensive and larger camera. Look at or better yet, hold one of the few full frame sensor camera's. They are large. The sensor itself and the supporting equipment would make the Leica a much larger camera if a move was made to full size sensor, not to mention more expensive.

That's a particular factor in large format camera backs still using multiple scanning passes to take a large format digital picture.

Development seems to be aimed at improving the photosites and drive engines for the smaller sensors to minimize sensor expense and camera size. Getting hung up on sensor size will probably deter sellers from looking at the real improvements in the field that are economically justifiable, and not having to work out once a day to be able to muscle the full sensor cameras in the field.

If a Leica M9 came to market in the next 6 months, AND if it were 35% larger than the M8, AND if the price went to $6000...... Would you buy it when it hits the streets, unproven?

[kuzano]

As a consultant in the computer field, let me say this. If you are waiting for the manufacturers to produce a perfect product, and the field to stabilize, you will never buy. Digital and computer technology is based on a continuous stream of new, improved product to keep the "money trough" full for the investors and CEO's and meet payrolls. I believe with all my heart and based on all I have seen that there will NEVER be a finished product in either the hardware or software market. Nor, will there ever be a product that won't leave the end users looking for the next evolution within days of buying the latest and greatest.

Do your research, pick a product, BUY and Don't Look Back. Otherwise take out one of those line of credit loans on the equity in your home (Well, OK, if you still have an equity, OR a home).

[Tuolumne]

Originally Posted by BillBlackwell

Here's a prediction (not based on any direct knowledge):

...

Since M8 sales have virtually come to a screeching halt, Leica certainly couldn't hurt itself by announcing the M8's predecessor by showing a prototype at this month’s PMA show.

Elsewhere in this forum we read that Leica can sell as many M8s as they want at almost any price. What's the real truth here. Is the pipeline full or empty?

/T

[rolo]

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

The M9 will be a modified M8 body and the same crop sensor with a small increase in pixel count. Leica will fix the 'mechanical' issues and the M9 will have more of the traditional Leica quality as seen in the M6/M7.

Launch will be well in advance of Photokina as the product is almost ready and is currently being field tested. Timing is good because the market is well aware of the M8's capability and it's short comings and when the shortcomings are repaired a massive group of non Leica owners will buy the body and several lenses making the M9 the most successful Leica initiative since the M3.

The M8 has created the platform, the M9 is the product that will secure Leica's future in the digital market.

If you can't capture your photos with anything else for the time being, buy an M8 now.

[infocusf8@earthlink.]

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

The M9 will be a modified M8 body and the same crop sensor with a small increase in pixel count. Leica will fix the 'mechanical' issues and the M9 will have more of the traditional Leica quality as seen in the M6/M7.

Launch will be well in advance of Photokina as the product is almost ready and is currently being field tested. Timing is good because the market is well aware of the M8's capability and it's short comings and when the shortcomings are repaired a massive group of non Leica owners will buy the body and several lenses making the M9 the most successful Leica initiative since the M3.

The M8 has created the platform, the M9 is the product that will secure Leica's future in the digital market.

If you can't capture your photos with anything else for the time being, buy an M8 now.

Where is this information coming from? What are your sources? How did the DMR get involved in an M8 discussion? You are more likely to see a new Leica DSLR than an M9 and that information comes from a Leica rep.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by BillBlackwell

Since M8 sales have virtually come to a screeching halt, Leica certainly couldn't hurt itself by announcing the M8's predecessor by showing a prototype at this month’s PMA show.

Where did you get this information from? Two of my local dealers are still selling the M8 as fast as they can get them.

[Ben Z]

Originally Posted by rolo

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

...I believe they will still have to incur those costs for everyone who has one or will buy one on closeout...plus, given Leica's history, the M9 will surely have its own issues to be dealt with under warranty.

a massive group of non Leica owners will buy the body and several lenses

OK, you got me I almost took your post seriously. Good one !!

[Leicabug]

Originally Posted by rolo

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

The M9 will be a modified M8 body and the same crop sensor with a small increase in pixel count. Leica will fix the 'mechanical' issues and the M9 will have more of the traditional Leica quality as seen in the M6/M7.

If Leica can't get M8 right, M9 won't be much better.

[BillBlackwell]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Where did you get this information from? Two of my local dealers are still selling the M8 as fast as they can get them.

You can currently walk into any number of Leica shops here in California and see M8s on the shelf. That must mean they're not selling them as fast as they can get them.

And I deal with two Leica dealers locally who sell nationally and both say "M8 sales have all but stopped."

[Ben Z]

What Bill says doesn't shock me. In the recent (5-10 years) past, new Leica film bodies reached a sales-saturation point in a couple of years. Given the M8's well-publicized issues plus the repetitive price hikes when digital cameras otherwise tend to decrease in price over time, it isn't surprising that the M8 would reach saturation in just over a year. Add to that the fact that there are used and demos available now.

[ernesto]

Originally Posted by n8b

Would you consider the Epson RD1 for a digital rangefinder? It's about half the cost and it will accept Leica lenses. I'm thinking about going this route due to the cost of the M8.

Nate

I understand that the RD1 sensor is smaller comared to M8 so it will be worse for me using superwides!

Ernesto

[Mike Ip]

Originally Posted by kuzano

As a consultant in the computer field, let me say this. If you are waiting for the manufacturers to produce a perfect product, and the field to stabilize, you will never buy. Digital and computer technology is based on a continuous stream of new, improved product to keep the "money trough" full for the investors and CEO's and meet payrolls. I believe with all my heart and based on all I have seen that there will NEVER be a finished product in either the hardware or software market. Nor, will there ever be a product that won't leave the end users looking for the next evolution within days of buying the latest and greatest.

Do your research, pick a product, BUY and Don't Look Back. Otherwise take out one of those line of credit loans on the equity in your home (Well, OK, if you still have an equity, OR a home).

Good point. I think your post somewhat support my initial suggestion. When I used to be a software developer, we'd usually stop at a 90% solution and release the software, before we started to work on it some more and gain more insight into what to add to the next version. I imagine hardware people would have a similar mantra. You forget that Leica is still a company looking at their bottom line. If they wait and wait until the perfect the M9 with 16 MP, full frame, M6 size, ISO 100 - 3200 with low high ISO noise, with no AA Filter and no aliasing or magenta issues, we might have to wait until 2015. Not to mention, Leica will probably lose a good deal of money not having new items to entice customers. It just won't happen.

Now what is Leica's 90% solution? Who knows. Maybe a 1.3x crop, with 12 MP, increase ISO range and performance? That certainly is reasonable.

[ernesto]

Well It seems that this is a Hot topic!
Thanks to everybody telling your opinions. All viewpoints are very interesting, and they opened my mind!

Thanks again!

Ernesto

[infocusf8@earthlink.]

You can currently walk into any number of Leica shops here in California and see M8s on the shelf. That must mean they're not selling them as fast as they can get them.

At some point supply catches up with demand with any product, it doesn't mean sales have come to a halt just slowed to a normal rate. We already have a Nikon D3 and the Canon 1Ds Mark III sitting on the shelf and they've only been out a short time. Leica is having a hard time meeting demand for lenses. It took three months to get a 24mm from them. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind wanting a new Leica M camera this soon given Leicas history of making cameras that have long life spans (some exceptions, the M4 for example). If Leica did replace the M8 this soon would the same people start criticizing Leica for falling into the throw-away electronic world we live in. Face it, there is no perfect camera except the one that's perfect for you.

[kuzano]

Originally Posted by Mike Ip

Good point. I think your post somewhat support my initial suggestion. When I used to be a software developer, we'd usually stop at a 90% solution and release the software, before we started to work on it some more and gain more insight into what to add to the next version. I imagine hardware people would have a similar mantra. You forget that Leica is still a company looking at their bottom line. If they wait and wait until the perfect the M9 with 16 MP, full frame, M6 size, ISO 100 - 3200 with low high ISO noise, with no AA Filter and no aliasing or magenta issues, we might have to wait until 2015. Not to mention, Leica will probably lose a good deal of money not having new items to entice customers. It just won't happen.

Now what is Leica's 90% solution? Who knows. Maybe a 1.3x crop, with 12 MP, increase ISO range and performance? That certainly is reasonable.

With the advent of the internet, almost all software (and in the case of camera's -- firmware) moved to 90% solutions. The standing final decision in the Board Room due to Market pressure...."Screw It, Pack It, Ship It, We'' Fix It (finish it) Later!!"

I can't speak to the Leica M8 replacement, since I don't even (and don't plan on) own an M8, but I think you'r estimate is closer to reality than most of the other conjecture.

[kuzano]

Originally Posted by BillBlackwell

You can currently walk into any number of Leica shops here in California and see M8s on the shelf. That must mean they're not selling them as fast as they can get them.

And I deal with two Leica dealers locally who sell nationally and both say "M8 sales have all but stopped."

I don't think the ups and downs of the market for M8's can be totally to it's acceptibility in the Digital Camera market...

In times of a receding economy the first money to dry up is money for toys. And above all else the M8 is more of a toy in the camera market place than it is a necessary tool of the trade for professionals.

I fact there is a current review of the M8 in one of the UK digital magazines that ends with the comment that the M8 is exciting and possibly collectable, but certainly not a professional tool. I just read the article today at Barnes and Noble.

[cmogi10]

Originally Posted by kuzano

I don't think the ups and downs of the market for M8's can be totally to it's acceptibility in the Digital Camera market...

In times of a receding economy the first money to dry up is money for toys. And above all else the M8 is more of a toy in the camera market place than it is a necessary tool of the trade for professionals.

I fact there is a current review of the M8 in one of the UK digital magazines that ends with the comment that the M8 is exciting and possibly collectable, but certainly not a professional tool. I just read the article today at Barnes and Noble.

So is everyone using an M8 for paid work lying to themselves...and their clients?

[kuzano]

Originally Posted by cmogi10

So is everyone using an M8 for paid work lying to themselves...and their clients?

I suspect that they have mostly convinced themselves that their cameras actually produce a higher quality image than DSLR's, or they are doing a lot more post-processing in order to deliver a higher quality product. Or, it's entirely possible that they have discovered, as many photographers who sell their work, that the buyer really cannot (and has rarely ever been able to) distinguish between high quality work and the highest quality work. Once that factor is realized, the immediacy of digital produces a faster pay check, thereby forcing an economic decision on said photographer.

Otherwise, I am not pointing fingers, nor am I personally saying that an M8 cannot produce an image that is better than a DSLR. I am simply reporting what I have read in a review that is currently on the newstands. Anyone who wants the source can ask, and I will go back to Barnes and Noble and post the issue I saw today.