new beginnings

[FrankS]

Re: PhotoDave's concern: Is the current RFF gallery more secure in preventing image download than a flicker gallery?

[BillBingham2]

Being somewhat stupid, is that possible Frank? Perhaps we put a tag line into the file (jpg) that adds a copyright notice to it and where it is from. This would allow for tracing.

Stoping down loads without requiring client side software I think is hard to do. Perhaps there is some type of water mark we could add, something.

I'll make sure we add that to the thoughts.

B2 (;->

[aizan]

the main thing that discourages me from using any online gallery is the comments. they're too casual, too "camera club". instead of being encouraging, they're just nice, polite, effusive, or...lenient. it's always an issue. who wants to say something "negative" when everyone else is "positive", even though it may be helpful? the trap to avoid is becoming like an art school crit, where people tend toward the other extreme.

there's also loose editing, which makes browsing a bit of a chore. don't get me wrong, i don't like rankings or "interestingness". it's no good at highlighting the good stuff. i do like being able to add favorites that other people can look at. if anything is done to the backend of the site, that's what i'd like.

edit: nevermind, i guess that won't happen. how about weekly crit sessions so people can practice? workshops for editing? the online photographer had a thread about that a little while ago. maybe he could moderate!

[BillBingham2]

I think we need to look at perhaps a group of folks, like the moderators are on the gear side, to help with comments and pull together groups of commenters for specific galleries. Kim for transporation, Joe for snow, etc.

I agree we need to develop guidelines for this team of how to say things in a positive and constructive manner, not like "Jane you ignorante slvt" (early SNL reference might be too old for you, sorry).

We need to see how we can leverage many members knowledge and desire to help people learn. Some may not fit that mold and that's OK.

B2

[planetjoe]

Originally Posted by Kim Coxon

This may seem simplistic but why do the images have to be on RFF to talk about them? If members are happier sizing them and posting them to flikr or anywhere else, just link to them or use img tags to bring them up here.

Kim

This, of course, is a brilliant idea - as most simple solutions are. I'm a big fan of the W/NW threads, which tend to use such means as described by Kim here. I don't see why a "return to images" on RFF couldn't be catalyzed by this mechanism. Of course, for those that post in the Gallery already, using "img ref" html is already second-nature.

This presumes, by the way, my opinion that the "return to images" can and should be a site-wide renaissance as much as possible, and focus on thread discussions centering around posted images - be they here, in the Gallery, in the threads, or elsewhere.

It's the Internet, after all. I also think that BillBigham2's ideas and comments are worth a read, too.


Cheers,
--joe.

[photogdave]

Originally Posted by FrankS

Re: PhotoDave's concern: Is the current RFF gallery more secure in preventing image download than a flicker gallery?

Flickr has already been caught red-handed letting one of its user's images to be used in a major advertising campaign in Australia. There is wording in the agreement that gives Flickr some license over your images (permission to post them on the site) but I'm not sure there is any such language here. Please correct me if I am wrong!

[Simon Larbalestier]

Originally Posted by Todd.Hanz

How about we nix the gallery and upload to flikr, maybe a dedicated group page. I know there is one curently running, and that would handle the objections everybody has to how things are run here. A link could be added on the home page that would show the most recent images uploaded and also allow you to see images in peoples galleries not taken with RFs if they have them.

m2cents,
Todd

Todd makes a very good point here. I too have stopped adding to the RFF gallery and now mainly upload new projects direct onto Flickr which is easier to manage and you can set specific permissions usages/licenses.

I am also thinking of setting up an entire digital archive on Photoshelter (although this has nothing to do with addressing Joe's and Stephen's question of generating ways of being able to discuss more images related discussions here in RFF).

[mw_uio]

These are the following groups that exist on Flickr:

RFF PAW
Rangefinder-forum
Rangefinders and Reportage
Rangefinders
Rangefinder Cameras
Telemétricas y algunas (Viewfinders) - Rangefinders
*Bessa Rangefinders*
Olympus Rangefinders
Nikon Rangefinder
Rangefinders and Reportage
FSU rangefinder cameras
Toronto Rangefinder and Viewfinder Film Photography With Primes
Rangefinder

So the solution is so EASY! Create a NEW GROUP on Flickr and be done with it. Just choose a name to be unique and problem solved.

Call it "Global RFF"

Cheers

MArk
Quito, EC

[mfunnell]

Originally Posted by photogdave

Flickr has already been caught red-handed letting one of its user's images to be used in a major advertising campaign in Australia. There is wording in the agreement that gives Flickr some license over your images (permission to post them on the site)... !

Actually, the photo concerned was released without licensing restriction by the photographer - something you actively have to do, as flickr's default copyright setting is "all rights retained by the photographer". The TOS for flickr only says you give flickr themselves the right to display the photo on their site (which they pretty much have to do). And flickr almost certainly had no knowledge of any of this until the advertising campaign was launched.

The problem with that flickr image was not the photographer's rights (he'd already waived them) but the model's rights covering commercial use of her image. The photographer had no model release and no way of waiving her rights. The advertiser may have made a mistake (though I think not) or may have cunningly bypassed the Australian Trade Practices Act by using an image taken of a non-Australian model by a non-Australian photographer outside Australia. The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission would normally have fined the advertiser into compliance with the Act - but had no standing to do so due to the lack of "Australian-ness" in the provenance of the image. In any event, the advertiser gave up the campaign in (much deserved) embarassment. I understand the model is sueing Singtel (the owner of Optus, who was running the campaign) in the US courts, but I have no idea whether she has any prospect of success there given that the advert wasn't shown in the US.

...Mike

[DougK]

Originally Posted by photogdave

I'm afraid I would NOT be on board with that idea. If the gallery here was removed I would never come back.
I had a flickr account and deleted it for a few good reasons. I like the gallery here because I'm not worried about any privacy issues. I don't understand why people think it's so hard to upload and navigate. I find it dead easy.
No offense Todd!

I don't find the gallery hard to upload to or to navigate. I have found that most of my shots, after editing, resizing, and compressing, come out to about 400K; trying to fit them into 300K files or smaller is simply a pain in the butt and involves more compromises with image quality than I'm willing to make.

[photogdave]

Originally Posted by DougK

I don't find the gallery hard to upload to or to navigate. I have found that most of my shots, after editing, resizing, and compressing, come out to about 400K; trying to fit them into 300K files or smaller is simply a pain in the butt and involves more compromises with image quality than I'm willing to make.

If I have a TIFF open in Photoshop and want to put it in the gallery, I go into Image Size, change the longest dimension to 1000 pixels; Save As and rename the file and save it as a jpeg quality 8.
The gallery seems to happy to accept them this way and they look fine for internet viewing to me.

[Todd.Hanz]

Originally Posted by CameraQuest

Guys,

As mentioned in the opening Volunteer thread, any changes will be made within the existing form and function of the site. Extensive programming changes are not going to be done.

Neither will RFF become like Flickr. Neither will the gallery be replaced by Flickr.

The doable goal is to make RFF a better imagery site with more images emphasis.

This is a discussion thread for ideas, ideally to be lead by the six volunteers who have agreed to help it happen, and keep it happening. But of course any member is welcome to contribute.

Before any changes are made, let's kick around ideas and see what we come up with. The decision what to try first will be made my myself, the mods, and the image promo guys. Over time, if we try things that don't work so well, we will shelve it and try something else. Possible solutions are fluid and changeable over time.

Stephen

I guess I missed the announcement, those six volunteers are.....?

I'm just offering an opinion as a member, take it or leave it. It seems that using flickr to house the images solves alot of issues that other members have complained about for years. I belong to a few other sites that do it this way and it seems to work well for them. It also saves server space, not sure if that's an issue or not.

good luck corraling this "circle of confusion"

[willie_901]

Originally Posted by photogdave

Flickr has already been caught red-handed letting one of its user's images to be used in a major advertising campaign in Australia. There is wording in the agreement that gives Flickr some license over your images (permission to post them on the site) but I'm not sure there is any such language here. Please correct me if I am wrong!

Flickr wasn't caught doing anything. Flickr did not let the major advertiser use the images. Flickr is not named in the lawsuits. The photographer (not Flickr) chose to license his photos for commercial use even though he did not have a model release from his subject(s). The major advertiser did not perform due diligence as to whether or not the model had signed a release.

Any intellectual property you post on the internet can be stolen and misused. One you post it, you no longer have control. Flickr can use your images on their site. They can feature them in areas of Flickr that new vistors are likey to spend time. That's it. Visitors to Flickr can steal your photos with screen-capture software even if you actively prohibit downloading in your account. They can do that here too, or anywhere else.

The RFF Gallery is so obscure, your images are safer here. On the plus side RFF Gallery photos are not easily found (if at all) using Google images. But they are can be abused if someone wants to misuse them.

[willie_901]

Mr Gandy's intent seems clear to me. Without modifying great gobs of existing code, and without using external photo-sharing sites, he wants to expand RFF's discussions to include the aesthetic and artistic aspects of photography.

I think Mr. Gandy's goals and vision are on target for both the members and the site. I sincerely applaud his leadership. Unfortunately the cumbersome Gallery software will impede RFF's ability to reach these goals. Still, it is reasonable to try and expand RFFs aesthetic activities with full knowledge that the current Gallery software is a handicap (maybe even a significant handicap). The only thing at risk is wasted time. But lots of well-intended experiments end up wasting time. (I just wasted 18 months trying to model a certain kind of MRI data – but I digress). You won't know until you try.

My guess is that in 3 to 12 months Mr. Gandy will realize that either RFF will remain an equipment oriented site, or RFF will have to implement a more radical change in how members share and view their work.

willie

[jbf]

Originally Posted by CameraQuest

Guys,

As mentioned in the opening Volunteer thread, any changes will be made within the existing form and function of the site. Extensive programming changes are not going to be done.

I have to say, this is not good news.

The current gallery system is really bad. Sorry but thats the way I feel. It uploads "copies" of photos to other albums instead of linking the same image. So then you get two sets of the same image with different comments. I find that extremely annoying.

I dont want copies of my images in other albums of mine... i want the same image with the same comments in whatever albums i specify.


Seriously.. it would be worth it to look for a better gallery system. No joke. I bet the majority of users would definately upload more if the system was better.

[pesphoto]

Im not crazy about the flickr idea. It makes sense, but it is a blocked site for me at work. i know....i should be working at work, but rff AND it's gallery help get me thru the day. Of course this shouldnt be a deciding factor. If this is how it goes, I'll take part. Dont forget we do have our W/NW forum here and to be honest that is where I look most on rff for the best images here.

[ClaremontPhoto]

1. In the Salon I can see just seven photos, of which four have a single vote each and the other three nothing.

2. In the current Gallery Picks thread there are just two photos after two days.

Are there any ideas about how to make RFF more image-oriented?

[Brian Sweeney]

You could put the Imagery Forums on equal footing with the Gear Forums- Place links to them on the main page. It takes a few clicks and some hunting to get down to the Words/No Words forum. On several other photography forums, it is usually up with the main page and tends to get more activity than the W/NW forum does on RFF.

[le vrai rdu]

In my opinion , the best way to post and comment is that each people wanting a gallery open a thread with is name and post there is pictures while others give him critics, it is much more simple than the system used here now, too fusy. these forum really needs much more pictures

[mfunnell]

Originally Posted by pesphoto

Dont forget we do have our W/NW forum here and to be honest that is where I look most on rff for the best images here.

While I like the W/NW threads for what they are, I think they also form part of the problem.

That's because postings there tend to run as one thread with some kind of unifying theme. Even a thread with lots of activity, and lots of photos, only shows up on the home page or under "active topics" as a single thread - amoung many, many threads from gear-ralated forums, general discussion forums and so on.

I'd like to see something where a singe photo (or set of related photos) had its own thread for viewing and discussion. If there were lots of photo threads then the home and active topics pages might start looking more like a photography place and less like a gearheads' convention - even if not that many more photos were on display.

In fact, based on something I've seen elsewhere, I wouldn't mind seeing three main photo forums. One would be (or be like) the current W/NW forum, where images are posted, for the most part, just to make them available for viewing with not much comment. There might even be a moderator-(lightly)-enforced rule preventing negative comment, and critique, just to encourage posting by people who want to show their stuff without feeling that they're at risk of hurt feelings. A second forum would be something like "photos for discussion" with comment and critique allowed. And the third would be "criticism (constructive) invited" where photography-specific critique (rather than general comment) is actively sought. Perhaps that's the already-existing critique/photo-picks/whatever forum, or perhaps something different.

Just a few thoughts, anyway.

...Mike

[le vrai rdu]

that would be great

[mfunnell]

I'm going to bump this, because I'd like to see some more reaction. Not so much the "three forums" thing I mentioned earlier (which may or may not contain any good ideas) but because of the "have more image threads appear on the home and active topics pages" concept (rather than, say, the W/NW approach where lots of photos can appear in a single thread).

Originally Posted by mfunnell

I'd like to see something where a singe photo (or set of related photos) had its own thread for viewing and discussion. If there were lots of photo threads then the home and active topics pages might start looking more like a photography place and less like a gearheads' convention - even if not that many more photos were on display.

Thoughts?

...Mike

[ferider]

Stephen started this effort two months ago.

Except for some initiatives from individuals, not much has changed
in my perception. No updates from the owner, no word from the
change initiative champions.

No changes to the gallery in particular.

Therefore, sadly, I am assuming the effort is dead.

Merry Christmas, everybody.

[CameraQuest]

Originally Posted by ferider

Stephen started this effort two months ago.

Except for some initiatives from individuals, not much has changed
in my perception. No updates from the owner, no word from the
change initiative champions.

No changes to the gallery in particular.

Therefore, sadly, I am assuming the effort is dead.

Merry Christmas, everybody.

nope. not dead.
not fast either though.

Stephen

[Florian1234]

I don't know if it was ever suggested before, but what about a small, random collection of photos from the gallery placed on the first page?
That would maybe draw people's attention to more easily visit the gallery section.