HC-110 developer coming out of tank pink

[Chad]

I have this 3 month old HC-110 developer that I have pretty much kept free of air durring storage. The last two times I've developed rolls with it the solution has come out pink when I dumped it out of the developing tank. The concentrated stock still is the same yellowish color.

I'm not sure if the pink is the color of the emulsion that has come off or if this developer is bad. What are the consequences if I keep using it?


Chad

[drewbarb]

Chad- don't worry about it. That's just the anti-halation coating coming off the film. Different films will slough chem in different colors. Your developer should be fine, especially since you keep it air-tight.

One point is that you might want to use a pre-wet of your film (two minutes in plain clean water before your developer; use same temperature and agitation as your developer). This will not only aid development (it swells the emulsion and prepares it for the developer- gives finer grain and more even development), but your anit-halation coating will come off in the pre-wet rather than the developer. Your pre-wet water will come out some wild colors, but your developer will come out looking normal. Your film will come out looking better, too.

[ChrisPlatt]

If your negatives appear normal there's probably no harm if you keep using it.
The pink color may be the film's antihalation backing washing away.
BTW what film(s) have you observed this with?

Chris

[erikhaugsby]

Rodinal comes out black when I use it with APX100, and purple with Tri-X, and clear with Pan-F. The color is entirely dependent upon the film type, and means nothing with respect to activity of the developer.

[sepiareverb]

APX25 used to turn the developer black too. If it worried you Chad a pre-rinse in water or Photo-Flo will get it off before the developer goes in, but it really does makes no difference.

[nikon_sam]

I see that with Tmax after developing...
When developing Neopan 100 I will let it sit in water for a while (even after fixing & rinsing) and I get a pinkish color in the water...I do this several times until the film base is clear...

[sepiareverb]

Ilford films do that pink thing in the wash too- I've always wondered if that was some indicator of fully washed?

[erikhaugsby]

Originally Posted by sepiareverb

Ilford films do that pink thing in the wash too- I've always wondered if that was some indicator of fully washed?

I just assumed that it was fixer residue that just soaked out of the film before it could be washed out?

[Chad]

Originally Posted by nikon_sam

I see that with Tmax after developing...

Yep, that's what I was developing. Haven't used it much

Thanks everyone.

Chad

[kully]

Originally Posted by drewbarb

One point is that you might want to use a pre-wet of your film (two minutes in plain clean water before your developer; use same temperature and agitation as your developer). This will not only aid development (it swells the emulsion and prepares it for the developer- gives finer grain and more even development), but your anit-halation coating will come off in the pre-wet rather than the developer. Your pre-wet water will come out some wild colors, but your developer will come out looking normal. Your film will come out looking better, too.

I've always wondered why a pre-soak works.

If I have a dry sponge (for example) and a sponge soaked in water - surely the dry sponge will absorb whatever chemical I immerse the two in more efficently than the wet sponge where the chemical will have to displace the water already absorbed.

Not arguing, just curious.

EDIT: Ah, I just re-read you post, it's a matter of swelling the emulsion thus making is a better sponge. Whoops.

[Trius]

Actually, my APX100 is a greenish black ... youse guys saying it's black are obviously colour blind!

[nikon_sam]

Originally Posted by sepiareverb

Ilford films do that pink thing in the wash too- I've always wondered if that was some indicator of fully washed?

I was fixing for up to 20 minutes thinking it was a Fix problem and then rinseing for about the same time...then I discovered quite by accident that when I left the film just sitting in plain water the water had a pinkish tint to it...I let it sit several times like this until the film base finally becomes clear...I'm going to try this with other films and see if the water turns pink...
Letting the film sit in water instead of sitting in running water saves a ton of water for me...

[drewbarb]

Originally Posted by nikon_sam

I was fixing for up to 20 minutes thinking it was a Fix problem and then rinseing for about the same time...

Chemistry coming out weird colors and film coming out of the fix pink or purple are two different issues. When the first wet bath (be it developer or re-wash water) comes out pink, purple, green, blue, etc., it's the anti-halation backing coming off of the film. This is normal, and doesn't hurt anything. The second issue, film coming out of the can pink or purple is generally due to under-fixing. However, as Nikon Sam has discovered, it will often wash out after the fix in water.

There's a problem with over-fixing like Sam's extreme example above- you can burn out fine detail. Too long in the fix can actually remove image-forming silver from the thinnest (least silver-rich) part of your images. With negatives, this will show itself mostly in loss of shadow detail, letting your shadows block up. When you over-fix prints, you'll lose the most deilcate highlight details.

It's better to fix for the prescribed time, and then wash carefully and thoroughly. I always use a fixer-remover (Perma-wash) for both negatives and prints. I notice the negatives I process mostly come out of the fix with some color tint. I then do five to ten water changes with agitaition as a first wash, and then give three minutes (with some agitation) in Permawash; then final wash for ten or fifteen minutes giving at least 15 water changes, with agitation. Negs from all different films run this way don't show any color tint, and of course I don't worry about fading. (I process other people's film for much of my living, so I have to be sure of the process.)

[jfujita]

My bulk-loaded APX100 doesnt seem to have any color. At least not when developed with rodinal

[erikhaugsby]

Originally Posted by jfujita

My bulk-loaded APX100 doesnt seem to have any color. At least not when developed with rodinal

Are you sure it's APX100?

[oftheherd]

Originally Posted by kully

I've always wondered why a pre-soak works.

If I have a dry sponge (for example) and a sponge soaked in water - surely the dry sponge will absorb whatever chemical I immerse the two in more efficently than the wet sponge where the chemical will have to displace the water already absorbed.

Not arguing, just curious.

EDIT: Ah, I just re-read you post, it's a matter of swelling the emulsion thus making is a better sponge. Whoops.

I have never used the presoak method so this isn't completely fixed in my mind (no pun intended, well actually ... ) However I as recall from reading about this years ago, you aren't that far off track. When the film is dry there is the concern that it will soak up the developer differently, that is more quickly and unevenly. By prewetting the film, the developer takes longer to get in and replace the water. You then know that when you wash for the same amount of time, versus using a stop bath, it takes longer for the water to clear out the developer. The time to begin and stop developing then even out. Plus, presumably, the absorbtion of the developer will be more even.

I think this was a method preferred by those who didn't want to use stop bath. I seem to recall that some thought it was a more even, therefore better, way to get the developer into the film. Allowing it to jump in and swell the film on its on was thought to sometimes cause uneven development just as a sponge thrown in water will often expand (absorb) at different rates throughout the sponge.

Anybody else remember that as the reason or has my brain become scrambled?

[nikon_sam]

Drew,

Normally I will fix for 10 minutes and the film will appear to be fixed...milky coating gone and image clean...what I am still seeing is a pinkish coloring in the film base NOT a clear & clean base...I have only seen the pinkish coloring in the wash with Fuji Neopan...I haven't seen this with Kodak BUT I will be trying this Water Wash with the next batch of Kodak film I develope to see if I get the same results...
I see the pinkish coloring only after developing Tmax (pouring out developer)...fixing and rinsing are normal...
Thanks for the info

[drewbarb]

Originally Posted by nikon_sam

Drew,

Normally I will fix for 10 minutes and the film will appear to be fixed...milky coating gone and image clean...what I am still seeing is a pinkish coloring in the film base NOT a clear & clean base...I have only seen the pinkish coloring in the wash with Fuji Neopan...I haven't seen this with Kodak BUT I will be trying this Water Wash with the next batch of Kodak film I develope to see if I get the same results...
I see the pinkish coloring only after developing Tmax (pouring out developer)...fixing and rinsing are normal...
Thanks for the info

Sam- 10 minutes is longer than you need to fix, and might be hurting your shadow detail. I run Fuji Neopan film a lot- I like it so much it's become my standard film, annd a few of my clients shoot it as well. (I just wish it was available in 4x5!) Anyway, I know what you mean about the pink color in the base, but this will wash out in water. You only need 4 or five minutes to adequately and archivally fix your film. Longer fix time will only burn thin areas out, and waste your time. Your film will come out pink, but after a good first wash, prema wash , and final wash, your film will clear.

What fix are you using? I shouldn't matter, but it is of interest. I use Heico fix (with hardener) for most films, but sometimes I use Formulary's TF-4 alkaline fix. Seems to make no difference, except that the alkaline fix washes out faster, and doesn't need the Perma-wash step- although I do it anyway. I certainly see no difference in fix times between brands, but others might.

[nikon_sam]

Drew,

I'm using Kodak Professional Fixer w/Hardner...powder form to make 1 gallon of working solution...
I have only used this gallon mix to fix film...
I haven't seen problems with shadows that I know of...
Here are some shots...
Attachment 47794

Ref_7566143-R1-E035.jpg

[drewbarb]

Sam- these look pretty good. I think you would have to fix longer then 10 minutes to have the problems I have heard of- like the 20 minutes you talked about earlier. I doubt it hurts to fix for 10 minutes- clearly your results look pretty good- but still I never fix for more than 6 minutes under any circumstances; I've never had a problem. I guess I'll offer two pieces of conflicting advice- 1) certainly you can safely reduce your time to 5 minutes, and 2) if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Trius]

Sam: FYI, hardening fix isn't really required any more for modern materials.

[han1953]

Does anybody else use TWO fixing baths? I do. The first 2 minutes most of the silver halide gets dissolved in the first bath, the second two minutes the rest is fixed out in the second bath. When the first bath is getting exhausted, it's thrown out, and second bath becomes first, and a new fresh second bath is made up. This way you can fix a lot more secure in the same solutions, as the second bath is only cleaning up the tiny bits left by the first bath, so it stays 'fresh' a lot longer.
And yes, i always use a (citric acid) stop bath - it kills the developer action right away AND it saves a lot of fixer. Of course you have to make sure it (and all the other solutions) get into the tank asap, but my Patterson tanks allow for that (approx 2 seconds to fill/empty).

[Niall Bell]

Worth noting that Ilford recommend that one does not carry out a pre-rinse, citing uneven development.

My fixer has been coming out pink for years with no issue.

Niall.

[charjohncarter]

It does that sometimes, 120 TriX for sure. My bottle is over a year old and still works fine.