Sunny 16 OK, but what about typical brightnesses?

[vicmortelmans]

Hi,

sometimes, I use sunny 16 exposure calculation. The basic idea is nice: to take a picture at bright daylight, expose at f:16 - 1/100 - ISO100 or equivalent. But if you don't have bright daylight or a non-standard subject, correct exposure is left to my guesses.

I wonder if there are indicative charts that answer typical questions like:

- how many stops less should you expose for an object that's in 'direct shadow' (I mean: in open air in bright daylight, but shadowed by some object)

- how many stops less should you expose for an object that's completely colored black

- how many stops more should you expose for an object that's completely colored white

- what's the typical correction (range) for overcast wheater (some clouds - all clouded - dark clouds - ...?)

- ...

I'm quite sure that your answer will be: there are no rules, but then I would ask: what would you do if your meter is broken and you can earn $$$$ for the picture and you have only one shot left (so you cannot bracket, hehe).

Groeten,
Vic

[ClaremontPhoto]

Sunny with sharp shadows f16
Sunny with soft shadows f11
Sunny with almost no shadow f8
Daylight with no shadow f5.6

Open up the aperture one stop for sidelighting, and two stops for backlighting.

Black subjects or white subjects do not figure as we are looking at the light not at the subject.

[rogue_designer]

See this: http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

Scroll down for approximate EV guides. Very handy.

[ravid905]

I would agree with trying out the exposure calculator, that's the way I've gone for about two years now. I make mistakes every now and then, but I am a lot better at it than I used to be. Usually I'll right down a few exposure settings, such as shade, etc. before heading out for the day, just to help me remember.

[Max Power]

Fred Parker's site is pretty slick.

Member RML also created a 'pocket exposure calculator' which is pretty slick. I used to use it with my FED and Zorki. He did it in .pdf so it prints out nicely.

Maybe drop him a PM and he could link you to it.

Kent

[paragon]

When do you use Sunny 11 rather than Sunny 16?

[Doug]

The exposure instructions that are now only occasionally found in new film packaging were remarkably good in guiding exposures in different circumstances. And the referenced online exposure guide is great too.

Checking against a calibrated Gossen incident meter, it seems to be more like "sunny 13" around here in mid-day or early afternoon, but it varies on the haziness of the atmosphere and how high the sun is in the sky.

But if I forget to take along a meter when I walk out with a meterless camera (and it's happened!) it's not reason enough to turn around and go back to get it. I can cope, based on the rules of thumb, and keeping in mind that neg films handle overexposure more gracefully than underexposure.

[sepiareverb]

depends how bright I am

Actually, I have just loaded up my first Sunny 16 roll since about 1978! Waiting for my freshly mixed ID-11 to cool of to run it. My latest camera- the Rollei SE had no battery and I had to order one in- backordered of course, so I, in my impatience to play with the new toy went at it without a meter. I guessed all the way- but about as the above states I should. We'll see tomorrow!

[einolu]

i think what would be helpful is a incident meters read out for a number of stock situations that one could memorize...

[pvdhaar]

Typical brightness?

Where I live (Holland, 51 degrees Northern Lattitude) the conditions are mostly such that I get a reading of about F8..

In fact, 1/125@f8 is the default setting I use in ordinary conditions. I'll open up two steps in the shade. I'll only close down one step from f8 when the sun is at its brightest midsummer around noon..

[Tarzak]

Originally Posted by rogue_designer

See this: http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

Scroll down for approximate EV guides. Very handy.

Alternatively Rick Oleson's site has an exposure calculator that you can make out of two bits of paper. A sort of sliding scale that can be adjusted for ASA/ISO and your conditions.
http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-43.html

That link is to a .gif version that I found hard to read. I reworked the text and lines and have a .pdf version that I could email you. Check out rick's site first.

[RML]

Originally Posted by pvdhaar

Typical brightness?

Where I live (Holland, 51 degrees Northern Lattitude) the conditions are mostly such that I get a reading of about F8..

In fact, 1/125@f8 is the default setting I use in ordinary conditions. I'll open up two steps in the shade. I'll only close down one step from f8 when the sun is at its brightest midsummer around noon..

I concur!

[VinceC]

>>- how many stops less should you expose for an object that's in 'direct shadow' (I mean: in open air in bright daylight, but shadowed by some object)

- how many stops less should you expose for an object that's completely colored black

- how many stops more should you expose for an object that's completely colored white

- what's the typical correction (range) for overcast wheater (some clouds - all clouded - dark clouds - ...?)<<

1. Open shade is three stops less than direct sun (that is, the object is lit by a clear or partly cloudy sky on a nice sunny day). I also close by three stops for backlight and close by 1.5 stops for side light.

2. Sunny 16 measures the light, not the reflectance of the subject being photographed. Black appears black, white appears white. It works. If you are seeking to pull extra detail out of very dark object, and don't mind blowing the highlights of other objects in the scene, open it up one or two stops.

3. For white objects, see number 2. However, if you want to avoid white highlights being blown out, and don't mind losing shadow detail, close down one stop. It's also a rule of thumb to shoot beach and snow scenes at sunny-22 because the reflectance of the sand or snow are brighting the shadow areas.

4. There are variations of overcast. In Europe (England, Germany, Netherlands), or when you've got serious rainy day weather, the exposure is often "gloomy-day 2.8"). This is two stops brighter than an interior well-lit office. I use f/11 when it's very bright overcast, where you can almost but not quite see the sun.

Most print/negative film these days has enough lattitude to still offer acceptible results if you are one or two stops off. You should use a handheld incident meter if shooting slide film. Its latttitude is only about 1/3 to 1/2 stop.

[Leigh Youdale]

Have a look at this - <www.blackcatphotoproducts.com/guide.html>
it goes a lot further than "sunny 11" but it's an interesting product, especially for thosertimes you can't get a meter reading.

[vicmortelmans]

Originally Posted by ClaremontPhoto

Sunny with sharp shadows f16
Sunny with soft shadows f11
Sunny with almost no shadow f8
Daylight with no shadow f5.6

Open up the aperture one stop for sidelighting, and two stops for backlighting.

That's useful!

I took a look at the Ultimate Exposure Computer and found the quote "there are three stops difference between sun and shade", that's even one more than what you suggest.

And thinking this through, you can have a new 'rule' saying "shadowy 5.6". Because
- in full daylight, a directly lit object is 16, and an object in a shadow (or backlit) is three stop darker, being 5.6
- in light causing soft shadows, a lit object is 11, and for shadows I subtract two stops no (shadows are less pronounced), ending up at 5.6 again
- in light giving almost no shadow, the exposure is 8 and I subtract one stop, ending up at 5.6
- in light that gives no shadows, the exposure is 5.6 anyway

So, whatever the light conditions are, it seems like 5.6 is a good setting to exposure objects in shadow or backlit.

Anyone to confirm this from practice??

Originally Posted by ClaremontPhoto

Black subjects or white subjects do not figure as we are looking at the light not at the subject

The UEC makes some statements suggesting that a white object and a black object are both one stop away from a 'normal' object, thus the total difference between black and white is two stops. I think that's useful as well!

Thanks for the feedback!

Groeten,

Vic

[Wimpler]

Vic, not completely correct, but indeed, the difference in brightness between the brightest lit and dimmest lit parts will decrease with more overcast weather: contrast will be lower. The brightness of the shadows WILL change, but not as much as that of brightly lit parts.

[VinceC]

>>The UEC makes some statements suggesting that a white object and a black object are both one stop away from a 'normal' object, thus the total difference between black and white is two stops. I think that's useful as well!<<

Not quite correct. The usual difference between black and white is more in the realm of five to 7 stops on film -- perhaps 10 stops to the human eye.

Between handholding a candle-lit scene at 1/8 @ 1.4 and shooting sunny snowy beaches on the Equator at f/22, there are 15 exposure steps. With a bit of practice, you can usually get within 2 stops of correct and, with more practice, can make an educated estimate within one stop.

(I've been shooting without a light meter for close to 10 years. ... I had one for a year but broke it a few months ago, so am back to doing mental calculations).

[laptoprob]

Shady 5,6! I will compare with a lightmeter shortly, seems vey handy indeed!

[vicmortelmans]

Originally Posted by VinceC

>>The UEC makes some statements suggesting that a white object and a black object are both one stop away from a 'normal' object, thus the total difference between black and white is two stops. I think that's useful as well!<<

Not quite correct. The usual difference between black and white is more in the realm of five to 7 stops on film -- perhaps 10 stops to the human eye.

Are we talking about the same 'black' and 'white'? I mean that both objects are in the same light conditions! So it's just about the amount of light they reflect. And are we talking the same 'stop' as well? I'm refering to what my (spot)meter would tell me when metering the object. So I don't see what you mean by 'stops on film' and 'stops to the eye'?

And for candle-lit scenes, I'm not in to those yet! I'll be very glad if I can manage scene's that have an offset to the sunny-16-standard! Yet in low light the UEC is even more usefull, since most light meters won't manage low light either...

Groeten,

Vic

[VinceC]

>>Shady 5,6! I will compare with a lightmeter shortly, seems vey handy indeed!<<

You'll be amazed at how consistent it is. Works both for open shade as well as backlight.

(Trivia -- The moon, a sunlit object, is also Sunny-16 -- that's why it is so easy to over-expose a full moon in a night scene. ... f/22 for the night of the full moon. f/16 for near-full moon. Halfway between f/8 and f/11 for a sidelit half moon.)

[VinceC]

>>Are we talking about the same 'black' and 'white'? I mean that both objects are in the same light conditions! So it's just about the amount of light they reflect.

Yes. Black-and-white is especially helpful to understand this. The classic idea that, if you over-expose a black wall, it will look white. Negative film should record about 7 stops between black and white. What you're trying to do is to match up the mid-tone gray of the film with the middle brightness of the scene you're photographing.

And are we talking the same 'stop' as well? I'm refering to what my (spot)meter would tell me when metering the object. So I don't see what you mean by 'stops on film' and 'stops to the eye'?<<

The eye is more sensitive to differences in tone. You can see "deeper" into the shadows than most film can, for example. Light meters like your spot meter are nearly always calibrated to measure middle gray, the midpoint between black and white. A spot meter is actually useful for seeing the differences in object.

Put a black coat and white football (soccer ball) on the grass in the sun. Use the spot meter to measure each one's brightness. You'll probably see a five to seven stop difference. Now point the spot meter at the grass and you'll probably get a mid-point reading in between the two.

The beauty of sunny-16 is that you ignore the blackness of the coat the whiteness of the ball and the grayness of the grass. If it's a sunny day, the exposure is f/16 (f/22 at the beach).

[vicmortelmans]

[quote=VinceC][i]Put a black coat and white football (soccer ball) on the grass in the sun. Use the spot meter to measure each one's brightness. You'll probably see a five to seven stop difference. Now point the spot meter at the grass and you'll probably get a mid-point reading in between the two.
[quote]

I had no idea that just the color of the object impacts the range that much... but after thinking this through, it does make sense.

As a side-remark, I think the most difficult subject to shoot are black-furred animals, typical for e.g. cats, dogs or monkeys. It's very hard to get any detail in their body shapes or expressions, without blowing out all of the background. It's like an astronomer taking a picture of a black hole.

Groeten,

Vic

[Kin Lau]

Originally Posted by vicmortelmans

As a side-remark, I think the most difficult subject to shoot are black-furred animals, typical for e.g. cats, dogs or monkeys. It's very hard to get any detail in their body shapes or expressions, without blowing out all of the background.

Fill-flash.

[VinceC]

>>Fill-flash.<<

Kin's right. Also reflectors (you see them used a lot in movies).

There's also just the importance of appreciating light as a tool. In so many situations, the light is just wrong for the subject. Like those black furry animals. That allows you to appreciate when the early evening sunlight is hitting the black furry animal at just the right angle, giving it texture and contrast that is usually absent.

[einolu]

i vote this one of the most useful rff threads i have read in the past few weeks. good stuff here!