Leica in digital era

[jarski]

as digital sensor technology in these years evolve rapidly, 10mpx barrier for low end cameras and camera-phones is crossed propably soon. rest of M8 body ages slower, than the camera sensor and electronics inside.

when next gen sensors become available, do you think that:
- Leica will terminate current M8 production, and commence e.g. M8-2 that has fresh set of electronics inside...
- ...and starts taking old M8's and factory fits new electronics for those customers that are willing to pay for it

or, takes same approach than the rest of camera makers: M8 is left aging as it is now (which, in digital era, is much faster than in the old days) and one day M9 replaces it.

[Terao]

There's no real evidence of next-gen sensors being available any time soon. Yes you'll get lower noise and more megapixels but they'll still be the same old tech. For me a next-gen sensor is one with wider dynamic range (10 stops would be great ) and less edge light falloff (the biggest innovation is reqd here - an end to Bayer filters and microlenses). The M8 is pretty futureproof, particularly when you consider it will be pretty worthless in 5 years (in terms of resale value).

[jarski]

Originally Posted by Terao

There's no real evidence of next-gen sensors being available any time soon. Yes you'll get lower noise and more megapixels but they'll still be the same old tech...

my English aint very good, perhaps I put it wrong mentioning about next generation.
what I ment was also gradual increase of megapixels. for example when 20mpx sensor becomes economy wise doable in mass production, and if Leica would decide that to be their new M8-2 sensor, I could also send my older M8 for upgrade.

is this kind of thinking so far from hard reality of our time?

[Bryce]

Beyond 10 or 15 megapixels, there is no real point in using them with 35mm lenses. These lenses are not capable of much more resolution than 10 MP anyway.
Canon has already (well, a couple of years ago) that the pixel count would not go beyond their 16 MP camera, and that the reason was lens resolution. Canon makes some very good lenses, and are also aware of the limitions imposed by diffraction.
Larger sensors could change that situation though, and of course there are the issues of dynamic range, noise, power consumption, processing speed...

[jarski]

Originally Posted by Bryce

Beyond 10 or 15 megapixels, there is no real point in using them with 35mm lenses. These lenses are not capable of much more resolution than 10 MP anyway...

yes, I took that 20mpx just an example of the leaps that tecnology makes all the time. ok ok, I did not know about the lens resolution limit!

but as you menioned, there is room for improvements in other areas too, and I would like to think (hope) those improvements could somehow find their way also into my investment, in this disposable world.

[x-ray]

Don't hold your breath about upgrades. As far as the M8-2 and more MP's I don't thinkit's likely we'll se anything new in the next three or four years. Anyway Leica is so far behind the technology curve with the M8 their next generation will be no mor cutting edge then the M8. I've been fully digital in my studio sor seven years. leica is about where canon was four years ago with the intro of the original 1D. Although it was only 4.x MP it was more advanced an many ways then the current M8. It had no IR issues, 1/500 sync speed, ultra sharp CCD with 1.3x, high speed write to cards, high speed motor, superb white balance, AF, 5 exposure modes, dirt and weather seals, magnesium body and many more features. I know it's larger but it did so much and did it very well. Now look at the 1DIII with all the super features at less cost than the M8. I'm not trying to flame anyone who loves their M8 but it's simply not a cutting edge machine. From Leicas record of innovation I would say do not hold your breath about any upgrades or higher MP anytime in the next 4 or so years if then. It's true that the M8 will be worth near nothing in 3 or 4 years. Technology marches faster than leica can keep up with. That's why Leica is no longer king of the hill since the late 60's when high quality system SLR's like Nikon came into the market. Just think about the changes in the M system since the 50's. Basically the M's with the exception of the M7 are the same with the addition of a behind the lens meter and TTL in the M6 TTL. Now look at Nikon and Canon for example, where have they come since the Nikon F and the original F1 Canon? Leica was even late into the SLR market and was never cutting edge there either. Certainly Leica has redesigned lenses but so have every other maker and Both Nikon and Canon make spectacular lenses. Even Zeiss and CV have proven RF optics can be superb in performance and construction at a fraction of the cost of leica glass.

I'm not trying to bash Leica because I own 7 and many leses and shoot hundreds of rolls per year for some of my work but I'm looking at their history and don't see them changing.

[Gilles L.]

Originally Posted by jarski

when next gen sensors become available, do you think that:
- Leica will terminate current M8 production, and commence e.g. M8-2 that has fresh set of electronics inside...
- ...and starts taking old M8's and factory fits new electronics for those customers that are willing to pay for it

Upgrade of the current M8 would be nice, but I am sure they will discountinue it and introduce the M9. After all, this what all the other camera manufacturers do.

[Terao]

When I first got into photography the mantra always was cheap body, spend the money on lenses. Now I know the M8 is hardly cheap but what it gives you is a digital option for all that wonderful Leica mount glass. For that reason it makes sense and will continue to make sense. If it proves to be reliable (beyond the sensor issues) then it will be a great camera for Leica lens shooters until someone else makes a new M-mount digital body...

[Olsen]

I really hope that Leica have resources to spend on developing a M9 and introduce it, say two years from now. (By the way: What will Leica do with the R-system? That is a much more of a thriller).

A M9 will have slightly less than 16 million pixels, probably not that much more resolution than M8, but far better high ISO perormance. It will be faster, quieter (probably without a shutter at all), with superb white balance and exceptional tonal range, - be more reliable, but still with a 1,33 crop - which is the only realistic option for now. The body will be just as thick as M8, but also deeper. To accomodate a larger battery. Which will be just fine. Far better sensors we will see first when nano-tech reaches into the photo industry, say, some 7 to 10 years from now.

[Joe Mondello]

If I wanted to, I could still use any of my digital cameras from 7-10 years ago and they would perform now as they did then.

I expect that the M8 will still be working just fine in 7-10 years although I suspect that with the advancement of sensor technology, it will *seem* rather antique.

In fact I predict that in 10 years' time the M8 will be highly sought after for it's distinctive "film-like" *graininess* the same way that a vintage MiniMoog is worth more (much more) today than it was 20 years ago! ;-)

[Fin]

I think that Jarski struck the note in his first sentence; the M8 internals consist largely of relatively disposable electronics whilst the body itself will last a lifetime. A lot of electronic products nowadays are designed for a shorter life and that includes the hardwear - in line with the rapid changes in technology (my last mac powerbook gave up the ghost when the casing split, way before it had run out of available ROM/ RAM).
Cameras that advertise robustness (1Ds 11 etc) are exceptions to the norm. Idealy (from a manufacturers point of view) your modern electronic equipment would begin to fail, in some way, 6 - 12 months after it's replacement is launched.
Leica cameras have always been, in my limited experience, about getting the most out of the lens. They would gain a marketing coup if they could pledge internal hardware upgrades (as well as soft/ firmware) and market the camera as "the last digital camera you will ever buy".

[varjag]

To be fair, M8 was designed "antique" from the start, so I see not much room for deprecation feature-wise. It is certainly is not an investment camera and has to be phased out relatively soon with new model, but I would be surprised if it'll be totally "worthless" in 4 years. This market segment is different, look at R-D1.

[Tuolumne]

With respect to sensor advances, check this out, also mentioned in another post here:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0705/07...bustsensor.asp

With respect to upgrading an M8? Only a few super-geeks can even upgrade their PCS, and that is the exception on a device that was designed to be modular. An M8 is a closed proprietary system whose components are optimized for each other. You will never be able to upgrade an M8 in situ, nor would you want to if you could (e.g. your PC). On the other hand, Leica could have an upgrade marketing program where they would give you a discount if you traded in and up from your M8 to an M9. They could...but not likely. :-)

/T

[jarski]

Originally Posted by Tuolumne

An M8 is a closed proprietary system whose components are optimized for each other. You will never be able to upgrade an M8 in situ, nor would you want to if you could (e.g. your PC).

yes no doubt it would be difficult for you and me (both the PC and M8),
but I think it should not be impossible for those guys who designed
and built the thing in first place

Leica have factory upgraded their customers cameras in past, why not
continue same tradition with their digital cameras as well? like Fin said,
their marketing could use this as one more selling point also.
having least one digital camera maker in the world, that is commited to
provide clearly above average life time for their product, I think it might
get some attention.

but, like most of replies suggest, this propably is too wishful thinking.
quarterly earnings dictate the way companies operate. idea is probably
too laborious and time consuming to make enough profit from

[Ben Z]

The M8 is so expensive to start with, it can depreciate 50% with each new model and still fetch several hundred dollars when the M12 is out.

[Gid]

I think the real issue is how long Leica will be willing and/or able to support the M8. 10 MP is more than enough to produce acceptable prints at just about any "normal size" (my Olympus E1s (5MP) produce very good prints at 19 x 13 and above). The IQ from the M8 is very good and the noise is acceptable. In general use the M8 will out perform 35mm film (B&W DR and film look excepted) and there is no sign of 35mm film users throwing their cameras on the scrap heap. So, as long as it is supported, it will produce images that are just as good in three, five, ten or more years.

However, in ten years time the technology used to create photographic images may not resemble anything we have now. We may have 20MP digital video cameras capable of capturing high resolution stills that have as good or better IQ than anything out there today packaged along with the latest phone/PDA/fill in the gaps. Prints may be a thing of the past - digital albums/photo frames being the norm. Who knows? The key is to use what is available now and enjoy it. The more you use it, the lower the cost per frame