Perils of PayPal

[bob cole]

I have lost money with PayPal as both a buyer and a seller, always dealing by email.

Some time ago I bought a watch outside of Ebay and paid for it through PayPal...It was the wrong watch and didn't work so I returned it, as it developed, to China...The dealer never responded and kept my money...And PayPal said at the time I was out of luck because I did not buy the watch on Ebay... So far I dealt by email only...

After I lost again -- this time as a dealer -- I complained by phone and PayPal agreed to review the watch dealer case and see what it could do for me as a buyer...It also said it could nothing for me as a dealer...

As a dealer in Ebay, I sold a Bolex to a buyer in Italy...After 8 days he filed a complaint with Paypal for non-delivery...I asked him to wait a while and check the Post Office and Italian Customs...But today, just a few days later, he appealed to PayPal, which said if I didn't respond within so many days, it would grant him a refund...

To get the buyer off my back, I gave him a full refund immediately, including his postage...
Then I checked with the US Postal Service by phone, which told me the Bolex was in Italian Customs...

So I told the buyer, who has a respectable feedback record, to look in Customs and return my money if he likes the camera...

All of this happened with the buyer dealing in Italian, PayPal writing -- for some reason in French -- and I writing in English...I finally had to resort to Google translations to figure out what the buyer was saying and let the buyer know what I was saying...

I believe I will have to tell every foreign buyer to check in their local Customs office before asking what happened to their purchase... And, I feel, the best way to get results -- if results are possible -- is to phone PayPal...I don't know if I will get help, but at least I got it off my chest...

[Ash]

I hate paypal so much.

[kbg32]

First, sorry for your problems with Paypal, but I don't think they're really the ones to blame. Second, never do business with anyone buying or selling from China. Sorry to say, but there is a ripoff waiting to happen as their dealings in business for ebay or internet transactions is known and just not up the ethics of other parts of the world in internet business transactions. Some areas of Eastern Europe included. Thirdly, I would never sell to someone outside of the U.S. through ebay due to the hassles of customs in most foreign countries. I usually specify to potential foreign buyers the implications and hassles of customs and shipping. I will sell to them only if they understand items do take longer to arrive at their specific destinations.

Again, I am sorry to hear about your troubles. Paypal should have understood the problems of Italian customs before telling you to refund the buyer, who now probably has your Bolex as well as his money.

[peter_n]

For me selling on eBay is CONUS only, must pay through PayPal, verified address, insured shipping and signature confirmation of delivery.

[ScottMac]

I recently sold a 35-70 lens for the G2 on ebay. The winner has an unconfirmed address, with 6 points at 100%. The notice I received from paypal also stated that the sender of the payment was unverified. He can't understand why I rejected his payment and will not ship. Sorry, can't take that chance.

[migtex]

I bought a lot of things from US sellers... and I do know that any customs (here, US or Italy) are a pain.... they release things when they feel like.. and that's it!
The best thing is keeping communication open and use the tracks numbers..allways!
With the track number the destination country post office know where the package it is!
In fact the only time I had an issue was with a Nikonians/RFF member... he never send the Leica copy.. and I had to complain with paypal.. things eventually settle 2 and half months after I received the refund from the member!(plus other 3 persons..)

Sorry to hear that went really bad...

[foto_fool]

Bob - sorry to hear about your troubles, but sadly it is a familiar story. I don't trust eBay or PayPal to have my back as buyer or seller. I take a few precautions and so far have only lost out on one transaction <knock wood>.

First and foremost I won't buy or sell where fraud rates are high. Second I check feedback on sellers before I bid and on bidders during the auction - and read both what has been posted and what they have posted.

Finally, as a seller I only ship FedEx. Those guys know how to absolutely positively get it there overnight - even overseas. It takes longer to fill out the shipforms than USPS, and some buyers balk at the high price. But I have never had a package get stuck in customs shipping to Canada, England, Ireland, Sweden, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan or Argentina. So far.

- John

[AusDLK]

>signature confirmation of delivery

Note that this IS NOT the same as a "delivery confirmation" as I found out when I was scammed out of ZM C-Sonnar 50mm lens.

Paypal will do whatever it can to weasel out of paying a claim on its "protection" plans.

Sellers are at much more risk then buyers.

[sirius]

Another thing to be aware of for Canadian sellers is that if you sell on eBay in USD and use Paypal you will pay them a percentage fee twice. First a percentage on the sale for using Paypal and second on converting the funds received to Canadian dollars. They will not send USD to my bank and let the bank convert the funds. Not pretty!

[black_box]

Theres nothing wrong with paypal or ebay. They offer the spot... ...the who is where the enlies the problem.

Im sure if every 16 year old dropped in a used car lot, 3 out of 5 are destined for trouble. Eliminate used car lots?
No. Getting good isnt offered, getting good is something you have to know how to pull out and when you do, it is a powerful resource.

[sirius]

Yeah, I'm grateful for it. It offers some protection versus none with the honor system. I just hate surprises and hidden fees.

[jarski]

I have very simple rule when I buy or sell in ebay: stick within your continent.
not only foreign customs and (sometimes) communication problems cause hassle. but shipping costs increase also. this being said as non-professional ebayer.

[jack palmer]

Ebay will stand behind nothing. I used them for years on ebay until I had a buyer on a large transaction that asked if he could give me a $500.00 deposit instead of the $200.00 that I asked for. I thought that was kind of odd but at the time I really didn't see any reason not to accept the $500.00. well as soon as the transaction was complete the balanced payed.,he did a charge back for the $500.00 deposit. claming the item wasn't as described event hough he saw it personally and I had a signed contract saying the item was sold as is. Paypal came after me for the $500.00. I refused to pay it and told them to take it to court as I knew that I was rifgt.Yea they're wonderful until you run into something like this. It's a scam and some buyers know that they can use a charge back and Paypal will do nothing for the seller. If you think this is only one case , I have a friend who sells high end watches and he had three charge backs in one monht at one time. Wait until you have a problem with a transaction and then see what you think about Paypal. They're in it for their profit and they will offer you but won't deliver protection. Paypal stinks just do a google search for other very dissatisfied users.

[colyn]

Originally Posted by jack palmer

Paypal stinks just do a google search for other very dissatisfied users.

There may be dissatisfied users but there are far more satisfied users.

I've only had one person attempt a charge back on me but paypal investigated as they are required by law and found in my favor and refused to refund the user.

[jack palmer]

They're satisfied as I was until you ecounter a problem like this. They may be required by law to investagte but that doesn't mean that the actually take the time to do. I had documentation to back up my position but because the buyers credit card company allowed the charge back and they couldn't collect from them, they tried to get it from me, and when they couldn't they closed my account. I had many phone coversations with them and they had all the documentation of the transaction including the signed contract by the buyer, but they wanted the money, really didn't matter who was leagally right.My wife still uses Paypal on ebay but this taught me a lesson. I had over 400 transactions on ebay and a perfect score and used paypal a for a lot of them but never again. They knew that I was right and I told them lets take it to court. That pissed them off so... account closed. Glad your happy with them, most people may never run into a problem like this but if you do, don't ever think that they're on your side even if you would be right in a dispute.

[Brad Bireley]

I have sold over 2000 sales on ebay. Quite a bit overseas, but mostly the USA. Most of it payed via paypal. And thank God I have not had ONE bad deal happen.

[dee]

i always assume that any bank will protect itself - and won't give a damn for it's customers - and pay-pal have an entire bible of conditions which make most of their promises worthless - I stick to Europe in my toy selling , and have done well - and in truth , have done well buying cameras from Russia and the Ukraine , through pay-pal links . But I do not deal in big money !

[greyhoundman]

Paypal is legalized loan sharking. Not much different in their actions from those cash advance joints.

[akarin]

Came across this old thread because I was wondering about the many "CONUS only (sorry)" in the classified section. I couldn't understand why sellers on RFF classified would care if all deals I have seen require that buyer transfer money first (this is based on the "sale pending payment" status). I personally have bought 1 lens on RFF and duly paid the price by paypal and hoped for the best. Seeing a few comments on the seller by some established members did help grease my decision, of course. Thank goodness it was all good.

Now that I've read this thread, I could see that the ebay and paypal combination does have some loop holes that may catch seller by surprise, as in Jack's case. However, I still couldn't see what RFF sellers have to fear...as long as they have a say on the shipping method. Can't we communicate clearly on how the item is to be shipped, e.g. shipping firm, method of shipping, declared value etc. etc. and no deal if otherwise?

It seems to come down to just one factor...that's there are enough buyers in the US, so why the h___ care. Or is there anything else I missed?

[DRabbit]

Want to hear a nightmare?

A couple of years ago I sold a camera on ebay. Buyer paid by paypal and was inside the U.S (in the same state as me!). Camera was in perfect condition when I shipped it. Buyer received it and left positive feedback.

Several days later, they claimed camera broken and demanded a refund. I told them to file a claim with UPS (I had paid for insurance) because when I shipped it, it worked. They refused. They filed a dispute with Paypal who promptly returned their $500... and which left my paypal account now $500 negative (I had already transferred the money out).

Buyer used delivery confirmation and mailed an empty envelope to one of my neighbors as "proof of return". Paypal refused to believe that I was being scammed. They told me a collection agency would eventually come after me for the $500 if I didn't put the money back in my Paypal account.

It wasn't until I got on the phone, demanding supervisors, filed a mail-fraud report with USPS, filed a report with local police, and got in touch with other sellers who had been scammed by the SAME buyer in the SAME way did I get any resolution what-so-ever, and it took nearly 6 weeks to get the money back. In the meantime, my paypal account was basically useless. Another seller going through the same thing took even longer for him to get it resolved. The buyers ebay account was finally suspended.

I didn't use ebay for a long time after that. I hate that Paypal is REQUIRED now. I hate that they won't honor your own "as-is, no refund" policy (though I put it on every listing). Their fees have gotten out-of-control. 99% of the time these days, if there's a better forum in which to sell stuff on, I use that instead.

Be VERY VERY careful with ebay and paypal. Always ship by UPS and insure it (pass the costs on to them). Always ship to verified paypal accounts with confirmed addresses. But even then, understand that there is always a risk and Paypal typically makes a habit of siding with buyers.

[ampguy]

http://www.usps.com/shipping/signatureconfirm.htm

Originally Posted by AusDLK

>signature confirmation of delivery

Note that this IS NOT the same as a "delivery confirmation" as I found out when I was scammed out of ZM C-Sonnar 50mm lens.

Paypal will do whatever it can to weasel out of paying a claim on its "protection" plans.

Sellers are at much more risk then buyers.

[Frontman]

I've been buying and selling on eBay for years now, and have used paypal in the great majority of my transactions. Although I have had the usual problems of customs delays or inaccurate item descriptions, these things are par for the course in any kind of business.

I do sell and buy items from overseas, but I do a very careful feedback check of the buyer/seller, and the people whom they have bought and sold from. From the type of merchandise being purchased, and the length of activity, I can usually sort out the genuine seller from the bad.

Anyone who sells overseas has to be aware of Italian customs, any buy I have from Italy will get a disclaimer from me saying that I will not be responsible for delays caused by customs. If they agree to the terms, I will ship the item, if not, then I won't. The Philippines is another place which often sees customs delays, the last item I sent there took 6 weeks to clear customs.

Another reason I sell overseas is that on some items I can get a much better price from an overseas bidder compared to those in the US.

Now I happen to live overseas, and I am often disappointed when I find an item on eBay which I like, but which a seller will ship to the "lower 48 only". That I might have paid 1/3 more for his item than an American buyer probably never crossed his mind.

I don't buy Chinese-made products when I can help it, but I haven't had any problems dealing with Chinese eBay sellers. I have always found their descriptions to be accurate, and their shipping quick. In one case, an item I ordered from China never arrived, but the seller refunded my money quickly, and with no fuss.

There is a risk whenever you buy something. I've bought items face-to-face, only to find that the item I bought was stolen. I've bought things that seemed in good condition when I picked them up, only to find that they were moused together, and stopped working as soon as I got them home. "Let the buyer (or seller) beware", as they say.

[Rayt]

I do my "garage sales" on ebay and really nothing over $300 so am not too concerned about getting ripped off. For some reason most of my buyers are in Europe mainly Italy. I ship via registered airmail and enter the tracking number on Paypal as soon as I ship and also always attach 4 copies of the Paypal invoice outside of the package. This is necessary for clearing Italian Customs.

[ethics_gradient]

Originally Posted by kbg32

First, sorry for your problems with Paypal, but I don't think they're really the ones to blame. Second, never do business with anyone buying or selling from China. Sorry to say, but there is a ripoff waiting to happen as their dealings in business for ebay or internet transactions is known and just not up the ethics of other parts of the world in internet business transactions.

Knee-jerk Sinophobia, in MY rangefinderforum?! I ordered a couple of different photographic odds and ends from a Chinese seller a few months ago, he sent them over two packages. One of them never arrived, so he sent me replacements at no additional charge, even though I hadn't purchased insurance on it. I've bought plenty of other items from other sellers and had no problems either. Hell, I've even lived in Beijing myself. Should nobody in the US have dealt with me when I lived there?

[akarin]

Well. I guess I can see why some sellers are weary of overseas sales. Even shipping only after money is in the paypal account still has some residual risk from determined crooks.