Digital p&s to go with my rf

[ambientmick]

I know this subject has been done to death and i've read a lot here but still don't know what to do.

I'm getting an M6ttl and want a digital p&s as a backup - hip/stealth and family snaps. I had a Ricoh GRD - 28mm lens too limited and very noisy lens extention when turned on or waking from sleep. What I want is something with a zoom (doesn't have to be huge), relatively small, black (or dark), quiet, some manual control, not too much image noise, at least 800 iso available, low shutter lag.

I've read reviews of the Canon G7 and A640 but it seems that squeezing 10mp into such a small sensor means unusable images at high iso. The Fuji F30 seems to have good high iso performance but suffers under 'normal' lighting and doesn't come in black. The Sigma DP1 has the same single focal length limitation of the GRD. The new Ricoh GX100 could be ideal but again 10mp could be a problem and it might have the noisy lens extention that the GRD but we'll see.

I could accept a camera that doesn't fulfill all my requirements - there might not be anything available yet. There might be something out there that fits my needs (nearly) that produces great images. Any recommendations?

Thanks for your advise.

[rover]

I have been looking too and most likely will end up with a G7.

I have also considered the Fuji SD6000 (I think) but it needs image stabilization and the Panasonic ????? but the sensor is said to be noisy. I think the key to any of these cameras is to not expect what you won't get, but to learn how to use them to get the great results you see that other folks are getting.

[GeneW]

Have you checked out the Panasonic Lumix models? Several in black, many have image stabilization (key feature!), and some of them are ultracompact. They're a little noisy at higher ISO but the IS allows you to get by with lower ISO quite often.

I use a Canon SD700 IS. Not black though, kind of a champagne colour with silver highlights. Very good image quality for its size (ultracompact) and even has a small peephole viewfinder that is at least as useable as an Argus C3 VF I've had a lot of fun with this little cam and like it quite a bit.

Gene

[foto_fool]

After going through a bunch of different digital P&S I have settled on two of the Panasonic Lumix models for the time being: The FX01 and the LX2. They are functionally equivalent to the Leica C-Lux and D-Lux, respectively, at about half the prices.

Both have optical image stabilization (IMHO - FAR superior to digital image stab.) and both come in black. The FX01 (6MP) is truly a pocket camera - it is among the smallest cameras out there that don't have an external dock - and it has an automatic lens cover. The LX2 (10MP) is bigger and has a snap-on lens cap, but it has 4x optical zoom (vs. 3.6x) and a slightly faster 2.8-4.9 lens (vs. 2.8-5.6). The LX2 is also a little more fiddly than the FX01.

Feature for feature I don't think there are better values out there. The FX01 is smaller and easier to use (my wife loves it), while the LX2 is more capable (I carry one in my briefcase). Best of luck.

- John

[rogue_designer]

an older model, and silver only, but the Sony w40/w50 had very low shutter lag in most situations, especially for a digital that compact.

Might be worth looking into - and a bargain at that.

I just bought one for my girl, and I'll probably get another to keep tucked in my pocket - well, the pocket that doesn't have the Rollei 35 in it.

[Bingley]

I have a similar interest in a digital p&s as a back-up, and have been looking at the Panasonic Lumix FX-01 and FX-07 models b/c of their tiny size and 28 mm wide capability. Thanks to John for sharing his experience w/ the FX-01. Has anyone else tried this or the FX-07? I've heard there's now a replacement for the FX-07... I just can't keep up!

[ambientmick]

Hi. Yes i've considered the Lumix models. In fact I nearly got an LX2 - I still might. As you say noise is an issue. I just wish manufacturers put more effort into quality rather than quantity but pixels sell cameras to the masses I guess. I just quickly checked the Canon SD cameras. They look interesting but too shiny and they seem to lack any manual control. At least the abilty to manually focus or lock focus on a particular distance would be useful.

Originally Posted by GeneW

Have you checked out the Panasonic Lumix models? Several in black, many have image stabilization (key feature!), and some of them are ultracompact. They're a little noisy at higher ISO but the IS allows you to get by with lower ISO quite often.

I use a Canon SD700 IS. Not black though, kind of a champagne colour with silver highlights. Very good image quality for its size (ultracompact) and even has a small peephole viewfinder that is at least as useable as an Argus C3 VF I've had a lot of fun with this little cam and like it quite a bit.

Gene

[shadowfox]

I am considering to get a used Olympus C5050. Not much bigger than a fist, with f1.8 max aperture lens with aspherical glass. Comes with a remote that I can also use on my E-300.

[FrankS]

I'm quite happy with my Lumix LZ5 for what I use it for.

[ambientmick]

I had a C5050 a few years ago. Nice camera but bad shutter lag.

Originally Posted by shadowfox

I am considering to get a used Olympus C5050. Not much bigger than a fist, with f1.8 max aperture lens with aspherical glass. Comes with a remote that I can also use on my E-300.

[kestas]

Originally Posted by shadowfox

I am considering to get a used Olympus C5050. Not much bigger than a fist, with f1.8 max aperture lens with aspherical glass. Comes with a remote that I can also use on my E-300.

i'd prefer oly-c5050 too. and i think i'll buy one nearest time. i found only one digital p&s with max aperture /1.8. i think 5mpix is more then enough for family album. max iso 400 too. i like it, however i know absolutely nothing about things like "shutter lag", "sensor size", "noice" etc i'm still 100% with manual focus film cameras
btw, maybe any suggestions about p&s with max aperture around 1.8-2.0?

[hiwatt]

If you want a P&S that's really different from all the rest (esp. in image quality)wait for the Sigma DP1, with the same sensor of Sigma's new foveon reflex.
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/news/news.asp?nID=3307

[Joe Mondello]

I chose the G7 -- in fact I got it before I got my R-D1 -- and have been very happy with it.

It offers tremendous flexibility including the ability to focus manually, a decent zooming OVF (a must for me), a hot shoe (haven't used it but nice to know it's there!), really solid build quality (a huge plus IMO), and a dedicated ISO knob on the top deck (another huge deal).

Sure the sensor is noisy at high ISOs but the picture quality at low ISOs is awfully good, as is the lens, the face recognition and IS work well. It's a terrific camera and it goes with me pretty much everywhere.

HTH.

[ambientmick]

Originally Posted by IdeaDog

I'll second the recommendation for the Canon ELPH line.

No, it doesn't have manual focus (what "point and shoot" would?).

Quite a few p&s cameras have manual focus. True, there's no focus ring on the lens to turn but there is usually a wheel or buttons to change focus distance. For me the main purpose of manual focus is to set the focus distance at a couple of meters and leave it there, so reducing shutter lag (no focusing needed) and for stealth shots where the subject is off-centre.

[ambientmick]

Originally Posted by Joe Mondello

I chose the G7 -- in fact I got it before I got my R-D1 -- and have been very happy with it.

It offers tremendous flexibility including the ability to focus manually, a decent zooming OVF (a must for me), a hot shoe (haven't used it but nice to know it's there!), really solid build quality (a huge plus IMO), and a dedicated ISO knob on the top deck (another huge deal).

Sure the sensor is noisy at high ISOs but the picture quality at low ISOs is awfully good, as is the lens, the face recognition and IS work well. It's a terrific camera and it goes with me pretty much everywhere.

HTH.

Thanks. I wonder how the G7 compares to the Panasonic LX2? I think my choice is probably between these 2 and the Ricoh GX100 when it arrives.

[ambientmick]

Originally Posted by hiwatt

If you want a P&S that's really different from all the rest (esp. in image quality)wait for the Sigma DP1, with the same sensor of Sigma's new foveon reflex.
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/news/news.asp?nID=3307

As I said the DP1 has no zoom and therefore lacks the versatility I need. It's lens is also a little slow at f4 which is not that big a problem for me but it would be nice if it were a bit faster.

[Spyderman]

Hi guys, let me add my couple of cents:

Canon G7 has higher ISO than G6, but it has slower lens and so the improvement might not be so big. I have an old G3 and it has f/2.0-3.0 lens and ISO 400 maximum. Imagine you have the classic consumer slow speed of f/2.8-4.8 and you'd need ISO 800 - 1600 just to equal to the G3 in low light capability. For this reason also the Oly 5050 seems a reasonable option...

One thing I miss on my G3 is to be able to set manual focus and turn off the display... I just can't do this. Either I have MF or turned off display...

[foto_fool]

Thanks for reminding me of some other reasons I carry the LX2: ability to manually focus as well as select aperture or shutter priority exposure, dedicated AF/AE lock button, dedicated aspect ratio selection slider (4:3, 3:2, 16:9), auto-bracketing, 1-2 fps burst mode, simple intuitive menus and controls, pretty good battery life. And did I mention the HUGE bright LCD? (OK there are a few cameras out there with a 3" screen - and I'm envious).

- John

[doitashimash1te]

Same here. I am looking for a versatile "carry everywhere" camera, as a backup for my DSLR, and mainly for street photography. I'm looking for the following qualities:

- as compact and light weight as possible
- quiet operation
- quick between shots
- raw
- not too much noise
- zoom lens with min. 28mm on the wide side
- manual settings
- excellent lens

My choice will be the Leica D-LUX 3 and I will probably pick one up by the end of the week, when my photo store has a new bunch of them in stock. From what I've read about this camera, I expect it won't disappoint me.

(I also thought about the Ricoh GRD and the Sigma DP1, but they do not qualify because they have no zoom lens)

[ambientmick]

Originally Posted by doitashimash1te

My choice will be the Leica D-LUX 3 and I will probably pick one up by the end of the week, when my photo store has a new bunch of them in stock. From what I've read about this camera, I expect it won't disappoint me.

The D-LUX 3 is virtually identical to the Panasonix LX2 but significantly more expensive. I'm sure you already know this though? As far as I know the only difference is slightly different internal processing. I'm getting an M6ttl as I said so I certainly have nothing against Leica but surely they are merely cashing in on their name with this camera. I suppose the resale value of the Leica version would be higher though.

[biomed]

I have a Casio EX-Z600. I believe the optics are Pentax?? It is very small with 3x optical zoom and a very large and bright LCD display. It is only 6MP, but I have found that to be more than sufficient for what I use it for. It goes for months on a single battery charge. It has a BW mode, grid lines on the LCD and a pretty usable histogram display. I have the left and right arrow buttons on the back programmed for exposure compensation. The only negative I have found is noticeable barrel distortion on the wide end of the zoom.

[doitashimash1te]

Originally Posted by ambientmick

The D-LUX 3 is virtually identical to the Panasonix LX2 but significantly more expensive. I'm sure you already know this though? As far as I know the only difference is slightly different internal processing. I'm getting an M6ttl as I said so I certainly have nothing against Leica but surely they are merely cashing in on their name with this camera. I suppose the resale value of the Leica version would be higher though.

I know. The LX2 is an option but threads like this one:

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00J9Wv

make me wonder if I will regret not spending the extra money once I find out that the Leica does produce better images with their different firmware. Will the RAW files differ between the Leica and the Panasonic, or only the JPEG's? If the RAW's are the same, I might not be willing to spend the extra money.

[foto_fool]

My father - they guy who sold his business and retired - has a D-Lux and I have the LX2 (OK and I admit a bit more gear and probably a higher card balance).

I have fondled both side-by-side and the two cameras feel pretty much identical. The Leica does look better - sleeker, more Teutonic.

Before I bought my LX2 I read a post somewhere that Panasonic had updated their processing engine. My dad and I have compared images from both cameras side-by-side on his Mac and there does not seem to be any consistent difference, even on skin tones. Noise at ISO1600 is the same.

We did not do side-by-side comparison of RAW images (dad's software is, well, soft - no RAW processor) so I can't speak directly to that question. Neither Leica nor Panasonic are liable to divulge their firmware, especially if there are no differences. But I would bet that since both cameras use the same sensor the pixel processing algorithm is the same, and so the RAW files should be the same.

Bottom line: dad likes the red dot. I already have an M6, and I like the extra $200 in my pocket I can put towards a new CV 21/4P.

- John

[MelanieC]

The RAW files from the D-Lux 3 and the LX2 are exactly the same. There is supposedly slightly different processing involved with jpegs and apparently the LX2 allows a higher max ISO than the D-Lux 3.

I had a D-Lux 3 that I had received as a gift, and LOVED it. The level of manual control it gives you is fabulous and the joystick controls make it incredibly simple to change settings quickly. I wish my dSLR was set up as intelligently. Yes, it is noisy at higher ISOs but the 100 and 200 ISO files are to die for and with IS I was able to handhold some pretty slow shots. I used RAW for everything except casual snapshots. I found that even the RAW files needed very little post-processing.

There are two things I would change about the camera if I could. First, I would get rid of the protruding lens barrel so that it would be more pocketable. The protuding lens barrel does make a big difference in terms of stashing the thing in one pocket or another and makes it difficult to find a camera case that fits. Second, I would have an auto lens cap and not a separate lens cap that needs to be manually removed and that can get lost (very annoying). Other than that I had no complaints. Even the time between shots shooting in RAW was quite acceptable to me, but I tend not to need to take many shots in quick sequence. Some examples here (the first two shot in RAW and the last as a jpeg):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/soloriv...7600005622875/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/soloriv...7600005622875/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/soloriv...7594491325066/

Personally, I think any small digicam makes a poor "stealth" camera because generally you have to hold it up and out in front of your face to take a photo, but to each her own.

My D-Lux 3 was stolen (I got mugged) and I would LOVE to replace it with another one, because it was sexy and black and gorgeous, but given the $250 price difference I have ordered an LX2 instead, in silver because I think the LX2 looks better in silver than in black. Same camera, different outfit, I'm sure I'll be just as happy with the images.

For me the GR-D was a no-go because of the slow RAW write speed and because I think it's butt ugly. As far as I know, no other small digital cameras shoot in RAW so I did not seriously consider others.

[charjohncarter]

I like my Canon SureShot SD-10, it is closer in size to a BIC lighter than a pack of cigs. No zoom, just very small, and very good at 4 MPs. I'm looking at this the way the poster did, what else to take with me when I go out with my RF. I also have a pocket tripod from B&H that is great to compliment both cameras