What's wrong with my Kiev??

[Ash]

It's now probably 6 pages deep in the 35mm classifieds with hundreds of views and no interest!


I don't get it. At least 2 other kievs have sold since. Was I too honest? Should I ignore the obvious traits of an FSU camera and say that it works perfectly and succumb to 'ebay syndrome' with my description??


Something tells me I'm keeping that camera.

It sucks, I have it all up for less than I paid (especially if you grab the sonnar) and no joy!

Looks like funds won't be raised for the CRR job anytime soon after all!


Maybe it's prejudice. People hate the yellow snakeskin, just like my blonde/ginger hair - you're all so shallow!!!


Will swap for non-fsu f/2 LTM lens!

[Keith]

Blond ginger hair ... yeeuuch! No wonder you do all your self portrates in black and white!

[MinorTones]

I sent you a PM Ash about a lens.

[Ash]

Ouch Keith, Ouch!

lol...

[ruben]

a) You do not love this camera, it is obvious.

b) Frame spacing is not an epidemic Kiev issue. No excuse, yours is a defective sample.

c) 45 GBP ? Are you serious ? 45 GBP for a defective model and you call this a price reduction ? Who will prefer not to pay such amount to Fedka for "the real (kiev) thing"?

My sincere two cents,
Ruben

[Ash]

Wow Ruben, way to make enemies.

a) In fact I've taken some of my favourite photo's of a dear friend with the camera. But when money is tight and there are more important things, less used equipment should be sold. If I hadn't spent all of my wages when I HAD a job on a Contax II then I would never dream of selling it.

b) erratic frame spacing IS a widespread problem with kievs and is due to a simpler wind-on mechanism in the camera. It is well documented.

c) yes. £45 is what I paid for it. And it's what it's worth. The price WAS reduced. the price goes down, that is the meaning of 'reduction'. English is my first language I should know.

Please explain "Who will prefer not to pay such amount to Fedka for "the real (kiev) thing"?" as there is a derogatory English phrase used for poor grammar, it's along the lines of "stop talking shi....".

[ruben]

Hi Ash,
Sorry and apologize for giving you a bad feeling. We are in opposed opinions, but for me this is no reason to regard you, or any RFF member as an enemy. I understand you was just joking.

I can understand you are short of money, but this, or the fact that you have paid GBP 45 for a camera that turned to be a defective sample, this would be no reason at all for me to claim the money back from RFF buyers, and be surprised people are not rushing. In case you have got a good Contax, why not selling it instead, at the price you paid ?

Fedka is known for its very high prices and its very high quality gear. It is a fact that for less than 45 GBP you can have a much better camera than the one you are trying to sell.

Nevertheless, the selling price is your absolute domain. But you asked why people are not buying, and I undertook the task of approaching your question seriously and with frankness, from my viewpoint.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
I think we can agree that beautiful photos are the product of your mind rather than the instrument. But what you are selling is the instrument, not your mind.

[Gabriel M.A.]

Ruben: a little advice from someone who suffered it first-hand:

"A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal." (Oscar Wilde)

Too bad to hear you've made an enemy; I didn't see anything evil or rude in your comments. Better luck next time!

[Ash]

Ruben has not necessarily made an enemy in me. I hold grudges but the guy hasn't exactly assaulted a friend or family member - so don't think I'm that quick to judge!

In the UK £45 would appear to be a fair price for a Kiev. On the bay you cannot pick one up for less (once the inclusive postage from FSU is calculated) and you mark it as 'defective' yet the images I have had produced through the camera prove even a defective model is of high quality.

I'm not sure if you mean for me to sell the Contax to raise cash. Why would I? It's my every day camera. I would be without my favourite camera if I sold it!

[brachal]

Against all better judgement I'll join this thread ...

I don't want to appear to be taking sides, but I agree with Ash about the Kiev frame spacing issue. I have 2, a 2a and nice 4a. Both came from fedka and both have erratic frame spacing. Not so much that images overlap, but it can be close. I like to think that using a Kiev film cannister on the take-up side helps, but I haven't put enough film through them to swear to it. I mentioned the framing to Yuri(fedka) last time something went to New York for a CLA. He indicated that it is a common problem with the design and there's not much to be done about it. As long as the images don't mingle it doesn't bother me.

[Keith]

Don't feel bad Ruben ... he's young and full of fight ...unlike us older rather jaded individuals!

He really is a nice guy ... I can vouch for that!

[FrankS]

Well, Ash asked, and Ruben gave his opinion, somewhat bluntly, but completely honestly. I can respect that.

[ICU]

Personally, I find the yellow snakeskin quite attractive. Ash, it is a bit expensive, but I understand wanting to break even. Good luck, I hope someone will give it a good home.

[varjag]

Not taking sides here, but frame spacing is a common problem with Kievs, and with pre-war Contaxes for that matter.

[SCOTFORTHLAD]

I very nearly bought Ash's nice Kiev even before it was listed--it was only the Snakeskin which deterred me---But then I'm a dozy old fart,with little chance of redemption

Brian.

[oscroft]

Hi Ash,

Seeing as you asked - I was looking at it recently and may well get a Kiev someday, but I'm not interested in yours for several reasons. I'd want a "real" Kiev and not a fake Contax, I hate the yellow snakeskin, and I think it's too expensive (Actually, being so unpleasantly pimped, IMO, I doubt I'd want it at any price).

[markinlondon]

If it's any consolation, Ash nobody wanted my XA (with A11!) for 40 quid. Sometimes they just don't sell and you have to start again.

[ruben]

As for the Witness stage, I too have a Kiev 2a with frame spacing problems, and stiff winding/cocking knob, bouhgt from a top Soviet seller at $105 before shipment. But I have another four Kievs without frame spacing problems. Would I post an ad asking for my defective Kiev 2a $105, and depict it as "usual Kiev erratic frame spacing". I don't think it will be correct.

Now how serious is Ash Kiev erratic frame spacing ? A good working Kiev may produce spaces between frames from 0 to 4 mm. A Kiev producing up to 10mm is still a very much usable camera, whose price should not consider too much this minor problem. Therefore a clarification here may help the sale.

Good working Kievs, to be sold at expensive prices honouring their status, are precision machines and there is no reason to extend on this. Therefore contrasting Kievs to "the real thing" is a misfortunate generalization. The fact that a camera is sold under the label "Contax" is not a guarantee that it works at all. Otherwise, Mr Sherer and other prestigious Contax/Kiev repairmen would nothave found a living there.

Furthermore, while Contaxes have not suffered from true erratic quality control, they have suffered from aging not less than Kievs, and according to Contax/Kiev expert historian and repairman Peter Hennig, some Contaxes are not salvageable.

Personally, my smoothest Kiev so far is a 1984 model, purchased from the same top Soviet seller mentioned above, a tiny bit smoother than the wonderful Kiev 2a I purchased from Fedka.

Based on all these, I am quite curious to know what the fate of a Kiev would be, if given the same expensive/expert CLA that Contaxes are getting. I should write it on Jorge's wish list.


Cheers,
Ruben

[Ash]

Right. to clear this all up and lay the thread to rest. Someone is trading me for a Canon lens, so I'm happy.

The nitty gritty.

Frame spacing: erratic from 2mm to 0.1mm, never overlap, and never ridiculously seperated. The same is true of my pre-war Contax that has some framespacing irregularities occasionally, and is definitely legit.

The 'Contax' plate. This was 'pimped' by Spark on this forum. It is NOT being sold as a Contax, nor a 'fake contax' (in itself a kiev IS a contax, but in a different town by different engineers on the same machinery; read the history). It was marketed as a Kiev 2a/4a as it has top plate parts from both, and a front plate from a Contax. I'm sure I missed it out, but I should have noted the camera is sold with all the original parts, such as the Kiev front plate in Cyrillic and Roman text.

Yellow Snakeskin is a Aki Asahi covering, and regardless of aesthetics is sure to be hard-wearing. Function over form.

The price was fair I thought. Sterling appears to be a powerful currency right now. It's not my fault if the world market decides £45 is expensive for the rest of you.

Ruben. No hard feelings at all.

Thank you to those who have defended my opinions or said kind words, and I don't think anyone has taken sides, this is a discussion not a battle!

Anyone else I missed, I wasn't paying attention


And thanks Keith, maybe recent events have given me a persona a little more on the edge than usual. I'm a nice guy deep down, honest

The Kiev should be winging its way off to a new owner shortly.

[oscroft]

Hi Ash,

Someone is trading me for a Canon lens, so I'm happy

Congratulations.

It is NOT being sold as a Contax, nor a 'fake contax' (in itself a kiev IS a contax, but in a different town by different engineers on the same machinery; read the history)

I *know* that Ash, I'm not stupid. I meant I don't want one with "Contax" on it if it's a Kiev - understand?

I should have noted the camera is sold with all the original parts, such as the Kiev front plate in Cyrillic and Roman text

You did. For £45 I don't want one I have to reassemble myself.

Yellow Snakeskin is a Aki Asahi covering, and regardless of aesthetics is sure to be hard-wearing. Function over form.

Makes no difference to people who don't want it.

It's not my fault if the world market decides £45 is expensive for the rest of you.

People who thought it was too expensive simply told you so honestly - I thought that was what you wanted?

*You* asked for opinions Ash, and I gave you my honest ones. So there's no point you arguing - if you don't like my reasons for not wanting to buy your camera, that's just tough. And I'm please you've found a satisfactory deal.

[raftman]

Now I don't think I'll ever want a Kiev...

[Ash]

why do you need to reassemble an assembled camera? are you planning on taking it to pieces?
oscroft. I understand your points, but for my sanity i'm going to ignore them.


raftman - you're missing out then!

[Ash]

In fact, I apologise to anyone on this thread that I've offended. It appears I'm using it as an outlet for other things right now that are in no way related.


I'm sorry. You all have pretty clear views and opinions, and as I said I respect them, but I don't necessarily agree. In that sense I'd hope you will all stop being so blunt, and learn tact. Because without it feathers only rile up, no-one smiles

[JohnM]

Kievs can be a bit of a tough sell. If you buy a nice one from a place like Fedka, you'd likely never be able to get that price when you try to resell it.

I bought a Kiev from Fedka - had it CLA'd by Yuri's technician and had the covering changed and then bought a Menopta lens for it. All told - perhaps I have $160 put into the camera. (The CLA was $90). Perhaps a lot of money for a Kiev, but, to my mind, not a bad amount of money for what is a bullet-proof rangefinder camera.

I knew I would never get it back if I ever tried to sell the camera - or even half of it back. And I can't. It's just more than people want to pay for a Kiev - fortunately, I don't mind being "stuck" with it even if I don't use it as much as I should.

Good luck, ash!

[gregg]

I recently picked up two Kiev 4 series bodies, one "a" and one "am". The "a" came from FrankS and is really splendid. I gave it to a friend for Christmas as she loves it. Pretty even frame spacing - good enough for the mini-lab and me to scan.

I picked up a black 4am on *bay for myself after the good experience with the 4a. It had massive frame spacing issues: 9mm at the start of the roll to slightly overlapping by the end. A simple twist of the takeup spool retaining screw to loosen it a bit and everything is fine. The spacing is even and falls mostly between sprocket holes. I'm no camera technician and the info is readily available on the Internet.

The Kiev 4am now travels in my bag/briefcase 100% of the time. I bring the Leica M6 out a lot, but for day to day banging about I'd rather do it with a $75 setup that takes mighty fine pictures for the price.

My understanding and experience is that Kievs were not built to Leica, Nikon or later Contax RF standards - but neither do they demand the prices! A good user $75-100 camera can go a long way with TLC and a CLA. Given that the price of entry for a Leica body and 50mm lens is ~$1500 used these Kievs can be a real bargain (in addition to other brands.)

Still, one cannot expect to regain the purchase and CLA value of a Kiev camera - no matter how usable it is. When you can have a 4a with 50mm Jupiter shipped from Russia for $45 it is hard to justify selling one for $125 after you have paid for a CLA... Kiev, Fed and Zorki are great as users but not so great as long term financial investments.

Just $0.02 from a content Kiev and Leica user.