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Compensating for filters
Old 06-10-2014   #1
traveler_101
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Compensating for filters

Normally I don't use them but I plan on doing so this summer with the CV 25/4 Snapshot Skopar mounted on my IIIf. How many stops do you open the lens to compensate for an (a) yellow filter and (b) an orange filter? I am guessing one stop for the yellow and two for the orange . . . or is that too much? Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-10-2014   #2
Steve M.
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I think you're correct on the stops, as that's what I use too. Works fine. They come in different variations (K1, K2, etc), but that's a good scheme. I have a yellow filter on for B&W permanently as it darkens the skies, gives the clouds a little pop, and generally looks real good w/ Tri-X. Orange filters are a bit problematic. I do not like the way they change the native tones, but to each their own. Didn't work well for portraits for me either, but a lot depends on your lighting at the time and the complexion of your subject. Lately I have been having a lot of fun shooting w/ a red filter. I just like the way it changes the tones, looks fine for portraits, and the skies and clouds are wonderful. About 2 to 2 1/2 stops for the red. The link below has some good places to start.

http://www.fineart-photography.com/bwfilter.html
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Old 06-10-2014   #3
nlubis
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That's how much I compensate too. (1 & 2)
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Old 06-10-2014   #4
Ko.Fe.
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It could be dark yellow or deep red, or it could be light yellow filter.
If I have strong filter it is tested with iPhone lightmeter free software.
One measure without filter, one measure of the same light scene with filter.
It will show me exact numbers for particular filter I have.
Like, I have dark green filter. With filter on, all I do is measuring 400 film as 200 with sensitivity set on my handheld light meter.
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Old 06-10-2014   #5
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It should say on the filter ... 3x perhaps for yellow and 4x for orange, so 1.5 and 2 stops respectively
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Old 06-10-2014   #6
charjohncarter
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My light yellow I compensate with no stops. My orange which is also light I do 1 stop. I also have a dark orange which I do 2 stops. I find that putting filters on a light table and eyeball comparing is the best way for me to tell which compensation to use.

I set my meter to a new ISO/EI (when working with a meterless camera like the IIIf) rather than changing the camera. Also Red filters are highly inaccurate when used with a thru the lens camera meter.
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Old 06-10-2014   #7
rpsawin
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Go on the manufactures web site and see what they suggest. Most likely there will be no compensation required for the light yellow and probably one stop for the orange. Still, it's worth checking.
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Old 06-10-2014   #8
traveler_101
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Thanks, guys for the nice responses. You're right Sparrow: there is a rating on the filter. My yellow is 2x and the orange is 4x. Looks like orange is 2 stops then.

Carter and Ko-Fe, I like the idea of compensating with the ISO setting. So for two stops, 400 speed film becomes 100 speed?

Ok Steve I will check out the orange filter on some test shots before I use it for my travel photography this summer. However, I really liked these by NeeZee on TRI-X taken with a orange filter http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...4&postcount=80

Don't have red filter unfortunately.

Anyone try filters with T-MAX 100?
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Old 06-10-2014   #9
traveler_101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpsawin View Post
Go on the manufactures web site and see what they suggest. Most likely there will be no compensation required for the light yellow and probably one stop for the orange. Still, it's worth checking.
Very good suggestion. The filter are B+W made by Schneider in Germany, but I have been unable to find the specific information I need. There seem to be a couple of dead links on their pages. i did find this bit of useful information, which I didn't know and should have known:

Black-and-white exposure filters block the light components of their complementary colors (i.e. the colors that are positioned across from each other on the color circle), rendering them in darker tones. Subject colors that are the same as the filter's own color, on the other hand, are reproduced in lighter tones. Thus a red filter will lighten red blossoms and simultaneously darken green foliage, whereas a green filter will produce exactly the opposite effect.
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Old 06-10-2014   #10
michaelwj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
So for two stops, 400 speed film becomes 100 speed?
Anyone try filters with T-MAX 100?
Yes, 400, 200, 100, so two stops from 400 is 100, and you're going the right way, giving it more exposure.

All the time with T-Max, they have the normal expected results. Its the same base chemistry, just packaged slightly differently AFAIK.
The only film I don't find filters work is BW400CN, but thats not a silver halide film.

Michael
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Old 06-11-2014   #11
David Hughes
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Hi,

Filter factors can be very subtle.

In your shoes I'd buy a 24 exposure film and experiment and change by half stops for the orange and quarter stops for the yellow. You don't have to get the film printed just developed would do.

BTW, ignore if you like, but what on earth do you want an orange filter for? Most of us just use a light and medium yellow and, perhaps, a yellow-green with B&W film for landscapes. But using one for people worries me...

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Old 06-11-2014   #12
traveler_101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hughes View Post
Hi,

Filter factors can be very subtle.

In your shoes I'd buy a 24 exposure film and experiment and change by half stops for the orange and quarter stops for the yellow. You don't have to get the film printed just developed would do.

BTW, ignore if you like, but what on earth do you want an orange filter for? Most of us just use a light and medium yellow and, perhaps, a yellow-green with B&W film for landscapes. But using one for people worries me...

Regards, David
Hi David,

Yes i am going to experiment on a roll of . . . well i was going to say Tri-X but maybe I'll use this Kenmore stuff which i didn't like very much.

Orange filter . . . I don't know as I said in the original post I basically dislike using filters . . . just another interference, but I liked the effect of an orange filter on sky and on ruins in a set of photographs I saw. And I am going to Italy where it is very very bright; I have found it difficult in the past to shoot in full sunlight there.

Mark
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Old 06-11-2014   #13
kiemchacsu
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Leica Orange filter is one of my favorite ones. It gives quite dramatic rendering especially on sunny day, some photos:

Cuandixia Village by kiemchacsu, on Flickr

Ha Giang 11/2011 by kiemchacsu, on Flickr
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Old 06-11-2014   #14
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Try also a green filter.
Portraits benefit from red and yellow for zits(acne).
lightens skin tones, Caucasian.
The red filters often need more exposure than if you metered thru them..
Filter factors are a guide, not an exact number.Drama is good.
Those working digitally changing color digital to B/W will notice how effective, the green filter is!
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Old 06-11-2014   #15
traveler_101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiemchacsu View Post
Leica Orange filter is one of my favorite ones. It gives quite dramatic rendering especially on sunny day, some photos:

Cuandixia Village by kiemchacsu, on Flickr

Ha Giang 11/2011 by kiemchacsu, on Flickr
Very nice shots! The first one was what I had in mind. Thank you very much for posting.
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Old 06-11-2014   #16
traveler_101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leicapixie View Post
Try also a green filter.
Portraits benefit from red and yellow for zits(acne).
lightens skin tones, Caucasian.
The red filters often need more exposure than if you metered thru them..
Filter factors are a guide, not an exact number.Drama is good.
Those working digitally changing color digital to B/W will notice how effective, the green filter is!
Thanks. Is there a general scale with filter factors, i.e. each factor = half a stop?
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Old 06-11-2014   #17
yesaroos
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hi, sorry if i'm hijacking your thread..

about these compensating rate for filters, I wonder if it also works on light meter.. I'm using olympus 35 SP with alkaline and the meter is off about 1-2 stops..
so if I patch my Oly 35 SP light meter window with some red gel, would the meter be 'normal' (usually I set ISO 100 for ISO 200 film)..
I know I should try it with film but want some insight first

thanks
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Old 06-11-2014   #18
02Pilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yesaroos View Post
hi, sorry if i'm hijacking your thread..

about these compensating rate for filters, I wonder if it also works on light meter.. I'm using olympus 35 SP with alkaline and the meter is off about 1-2 stops..
so if I patch my Oly 35 SP light meter window with some red gel, would the meter be 'normal' (usually I set ISO 100 for ISO 200 film)..
I know I should try it with film but want some insight first

thanks
For that particular use, you'd be better off with neutral density rather than color; the latter can be skewed by colors predominating certain scenes, leading to inconsistent readings.
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Old 06-11-2014   #19
traveler_101
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What I have gathered from people here that are a lot more experienced than I: it is not necessary to use a BUILT-IN light meter with b&w film. I use the "Sunny 16" rule much of the time and hit most of the shots--sure I make mistakes. In trickier situations I take one measurement with an external light meter and then base my shooting on that. No need to constantly check your light meter. Then you can compensate for filters on the basis of your estimates and readings from an external finder. Keep in mind that some films -- Tri-X -- are more forgiving than others.

Maybe someone else can back me up here or tell me I'm wrong
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Old 06-11-2014   #20
yesaroos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02Pilot View Post
For that particular use, you'd be better off with neutral density rather than color; the latter can be skewed by colors predominating certain scenes, leading to inconsistent readings.
thanks, I'll check about ND filter, the red gel is actually cut the metering about 1-1.5 stop.. but might be skewed in certain scenes as you say..

Quote:
Originally Posted by traveler_101 View Post
What I have gathered from people here that are a lot more experienced than I: it is not necessary to use a BUILT-IN light meter with b&w film. I use the "Sunny 16" rule much of the time and hit most of the shots--sure I make mistakes. In trickier situations I take one measurement with an external light meter and then base my shooting on that. No need to constantly check your light meter. Then you can compensate for filters on the basis of your estimates and readings from an external finder. Keep in mind that some films -- Tri-X -- are more forgiving than others.

Maybe someone else can back me up here or tell me I'm wrong
hi, I'm using sunny 16 too.. but sometimes get tempted to use the Oly 35 auto mode after read your thread about filter compensation, I'm thinking about applied it on my Oly 35 light meter instead of lowering the ISO dial or doing some tweak on the electrical..
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Old 06-11-2014   #21
Ronald M
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Filter factor depends on filter color, and color of illumination . Not on color of subject.

Fire off a blank frame with no filter, then the filter in question. Include a grey card.
When the density of the grey is the with/without, that is the compensation for that type of light.

If you must meter through the filter, yellow is pretty accurate, orange less so, red is way off. you will need to find a meter compensation factor with a grey board and your particular meter.

There is no point in matching densities for colored subjects because the filter is supposed to change the density. Use a grey board or faded blacktop street.

Repeat all for tungsten light.

The best way, is to meter without, apply filter, increase exposure.
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Old 06-12-2014   #22
MrFujicaman
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Kodak filters-
K1=Wratten #6 light yellow
K2=Wratten #8 yellow
K3=Wratten #9 deep yellow
X1=Wratten #11 yellow green
X2=Wratten #13 dark yellow-green
G=Wratten #15 deep yellow
A=Wratten #25 medium red
F=Wratten #29 dark red
C5=Wratten 47=blue
C4=Wratten #49 dark blue
B=Wratten #58 green
N=Wratten #61 dark green
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Old 06-12-2014   #23
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If you look, most filter makers use the Wratten #'s or have a cross-ref chart on their website.

Kodak Filter factors-

FF=filter factor

Tri-x
#8-FF 2
# 15-FF 2.5
#11-FF 4
#25-FF 8
#29-FF 16

T-Max 100 & 400

#8-FF 1.5
#11-FF 3
#15-FF 2
#25-FF 8
#47-FF 8
#58-FF 6

Ilford Pan-F, FP4+ and HP5+ and 400 Delta

#8-FF 1.5
#11-FF 3
#15-FF 2
#25-FF 6
#29-FF 12
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Old 06-12-2014   #24
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You'll also find filters marked #21, #6,#22 and #23 from time to time.

Most of these are somewhat rare.....I've never seen a #6 Wratten yellow in my life.

Hope this info helps.
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Old 06-13-2014   #25
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Hi,

The blue Wratten 80's and 82's (meaning plus a letter) are for daylight colour film used with artificial light. The Yellows, 81's and 85's are for the other way round. The aim in both cases is to correct the colour temperature to about 55500 degrees Kelvin.

Regards, David
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