new to bessa and rfs - questions

[mrtoml]

Hi

I just got a Bessa R and Jupiter 8 lens and ran a couple of rolls through it, but I have some nagging queries and I can't find the answers through searching. I am completely new to LTM RFs and fairly new to RFs in general, but I have used a Yashica GS and just got hold of a Canonet QL19. I am familiar with SLRs and MF cameras so I am not a complete newbie.

First question is that when I screw in the lens as far as it will go - without using force - the red line on the lens barrel in the centre of the DOF scale that I assume should point straight up actually goes round an extra couple of degrees so it is about 3mm off centre and looks like it is too far round. If I have the red line pointing straight up the lens feels slightly loose and might turn in the mount when I adjust the aperture or focus. Should the red line be in the dead centre or doesn't it matter?

Second question is that many of the pictures I have taken seem soft. I don't know if this is just my inexperience with focussing or whether it is the lens. Or whether this is related to my first question about how far to screw the lens in. Bear in mind that the weather here is terrible at the moment and I had the lens pretty much wide open most of the time even with 400 iso film. But I have read that these Russian lenses can be out or don't even work at all on non-Russian cameras without adjustment. But there seem to be conflicting reports about this. I would test the lens myself, but I need an answer to the first question before I can do it or I think I may be just wasting my time.

Third question relates to new CV lenses. I prefer something a little wider than 50mm so I am about to order the 35mm color skopar classic. Is the Ultron really worth the extra $$$ in terms of sharpness? And if I need a new 50mm eventually I assume that it is better to go for the Nokton 50/1.5 rather than the color Skopar 50/2.5 as the price difference is not that big. I also assume that these lenses come with click stops unlike the Jupiter 8.

Thanks for any advice and happy new year.

Mark

[dazedgonebye]

My own experience is too limited to give definitive answers here. Fortunately, others will step in.

I can tell you my decisions on the same topics.

From my understanding, the Ultron offers 2 advantages over the color-skopar. Speed and better out of focus areas. I have the color skopar, but have given in to the tempation of a good deal on an Ultron, before I even have a roll through with the skopar. I desire the speed.
I've also ordered a Nokton over the 50mm skopar for the same reasons...in addition to very good reviews I've read on that lens.

[dostacos]

Welcome to the board, I am sure all your questions will be answered soon.

I will take a shot at your CV lens questions.

the 35/2.5 C Color Skopar Classic is a great lens, I have been very pleased with it's quality and picture results
the 35/1.7 ASPH Ultron I do not have, but between the two the 1.7 is not that much faster for the price
"the beast" AKA the 35/1.2 ASPH Nokton is a HUGE lens, I have just picked one up and have not used it yet, but it is FAST

overall, if you are doing lots of low light shooting the faster lens will be better.

I feel that anybody with a Bessa ought to have the 35/2.5 C Color Skopar Classic, the price is great and so is the lens.

check out cameraquest [link to the left] one of the sponsors and lots of info regarding RF cameras especially the bessas and their lenses.

finally check out two threads, the March 21 shoot http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=29549

and a portrait a month thread http://www.rangefinderforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=33836

again, welcome

[markinlondon]

Hi, Mark. All the CV lenses you've listed are excellent but the Skopars have a definite family resemblance. They are very sharp and contrasty while the Nokton and the Ultron are equally sharp but a touch more forgiving in contrast. The London set in my flickr galleries has examples of both 35 and 50 Skopars and the 35 Ultron. I think there's a couple of 50 Nokton frames in there as well. The aperture rings of all CV lenses are click stopped.

Softness with a Jupiter could either be the lens itself or a registration issue between your lens and body.

[mike_j]

One of my Jupiter 8's is razor sharp on the Bessa R2 and quite soft on the original Zorki - clearly a registration problem. The working distance for the J8 lens is 28.80 +/- 0.02 mm and the camera distance is 0.04mm more to allow for the film. If you had a M mount you could tweak the registration with shims (as is done on the Zorkis) but with screw I don't know that there is much you can do

[mrtoml]

Thanks for all your quick responses! I can see this is going to be a useful forum to get involved in.

It looks like I will go with the 35/2.5 color skopar classic as my 35mm lens. The ultron 35 is tempting, but seems to be twice the price and I don't think I will need the speed that much. I have already contacted camera quest about the 35/2.5 lens and it is much cheaper to get it shipped from the US than to buy it in the UK.

The 50/1.5 nokton looks like incredibly good value judging by the reviews and user reports I have seen so that will probably replace the Jupiter 8 if I cannot fix it or get around the problem. If indeed there is a problem

Regarding screw mount lenses, though, how far do you actually screw them in? There seems to be no mechanism on the J8 to stop rotating it into the mount. Is this the same with all LTM lenses? I have been looking at the mechanics of the lens and can see that if - as mine does - you can twist it another 3mm it will extend the base of the lens further into the camera mount (say by 0.5mm or so???) and hence affect the way it connects with the roller inside the camera. I presume that even a small increase in pressure on this roller will affect the way the camera focusses and how the rangefinder works. Is this correct?

If the lens is not sitting right in the mount then is there any point in doing a lens test (which I hate doing)?

I really like the feel of the Bessa and am looking forward to an interesting relationship with RFs if I can get over these issues.

Thanks
Mark

[jesse1dog]

Hi Mark
I usually don't know what I am talking about - but here goes!!
I had trouble fitting a J8 into my Bessa and discovered this when I tried focussing on objects a known distance away - I have a 25m tape to do the measuring! I discovered that the lens wasn't seating properly and by doing a bit more wiggling got it to rotate quite a bit more - things actually lined up. When I looked carefully I could see that the lens hadn't seated properly and there was a slight gap between the Bessa flange and the back of the lens.

I would have thought, ignorance probably showing here, that if the lens was set at 3m and the object was 3m away things should be in focus.

I concluded that the shape of my Bessa screw thread was different to the thread on the J8. Its difficult to tell but not unlikely. The Bessa is relatively new and the J8 is probably used so there will be a wear difference. In addition why should the screw thread of the Bessa be exactly the same as that of the J8 - not only are the screw cutting machines of different manufacture but I would expect that the cutting tolerance would be less with a newer cut thread. Does this make any sort of sense or is it another of my senior moments?

Hope some of this gives you 'food for thought'.

Whatever, have fun, and may 2007 be a better year with more fun and laughter, and better photos!

[brachal]

My experience is that the lens should be tight in the mount, but that the center of the DOF scale doesn't have to be perfectly vertical. I seem to remember reading that up to 10 degrees off of vertical won't affect focusing. Screw it in until it's snug. I have some FSU lenses that line up straight, a few off to the right, and one that's off to the left. All work fine.

There are potential issues with FSU glass on a Bessa, but usually they work pretty well. There are reports that the Soviets used the Contax focusing standard for all of their lenses instead of the Leica standard. If that's true, all FSU glass should be a little soft up close and wide open. Some tests by knowlegeable people here at RFF support that theory, others do not. My own experiences lead me to think it isn't much of an issue. I'm a big fan of Soviet glass.

I use a Jupiter 3, Jupiter 8, Industar 61, Jupiter 9, and Jupiter 11 on my R, and have never had any problems -- but I've been lucky. All FSU gear is notorious for wild swings in quality. Some examples are world-class, others are junk. Generally items from the 60's or earlier are better made than later examples, but there are exceptions to that rule. My J8 is from '84 and it's a strong performer. I also use the CV 35mm Color Skopar, and it's a gem -- one of my favorites. The Jupiter 8 does have the reputation for being a little soft at 2 and 2.8. It's also going to have a slightly different "feel" than what you may be used to using -- the optics were developed in the 30s and never changed much. Finally, visit the Russian RF section of the forum. Lots of data you can use there from people who know a lot more than I do.

[popstar]

Congratulations on the new rig. The Bessa R is a good workhorse. You'll be pleased for some time.

As for the CV lens, the most obvious visual difference between the Skopars and Nokton/Ultrons is size. The Skopars are much smaller than their relatives, especially the 35mm. If you don't think you'll need a wide open lens too often, the Skopar will do you fine. That said, the 50mm Nokton is very nice. Probably one of the best values for its performance out there.

Good luck getting used to the setup. It's worth spending the time; the results will come!

[mrtoml]

Hi Again

Thanks again for all your replies. Assuming that the lens should just be snug in the mount I did a quick test of the sharpness of the J8. I mounted the camera on a tripod and shot a sheet of newspaper pinned to the wall at various distances. The lens seems to me to be definitely out. At all distances (1m, 1.5m 2m, 3m) it is totally soft at f2, and doesn't really start getting sharp until f8 - though f11 shows a slight improvement over f8. Can I conclude that it is a dud lens?

I have attached some crops showing the scans at f2, f5.6 and f11 at 1.5 meters.

The scans were done on a Minolta scan elite 5400. I did auto levels and the same sharpening on all shots, but I think it is obvious that the wider apertures are out of focus.

Looks like I will be ordering a couple of CV lenses.

Mark

[Spyderman]

The lens probably needs some shimming. It is not at all difficult task.

You just have to set the infinity at real infinity... there is a great article about this by Rick Oleson: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-123.html

You will have to unscrew the optical block from the focussing block and then adjust the shim by adding a couple of paper shims or by sanding the original shim. This will make the lens focus at infinity when the scale says infinity. All other distances will improve as well.
The problem with Contax vs. Leica standard is visible only on 50/1.5 and 85/2. At 50/2 it is covered in the DOF.

Also, screw the lens as far as it will go. The Soviets used threads with different start, but the register was the same. Don't even think about adjusting register on Bessa. You would probably ruin your camera...

Also read the J-8 CLA manual on this site: http://www.pentax-manuals.com/repairs.htm There's a how to on uncrewing the optical block from the focussing block.

After you adjust the shims, you will have to adjust the position of the aperture scale, but that is really easy. If you have any questions - feel free to ask... I'll be around

[brachal]

Mark,

Don't give up on your J8! There are people who can adjust the lens pretty cheaply if you don't want to do it yourself. Or just buy another -- you ought to be able to pick up 3 or 4 for the price of a new CV lens (not that there's anything wrong with CV lenses). A good Jupiter 8 is a great lens.

[mrtoml]

Maybe I will have to think about what to do with the 50mm Jupiter and just order the 35mm skopar for the time being.

But another thing struck me. How can you tell whether it is the lens that is out or the camera body? I bought this kit used so maybe the camera got knocked out of sync in transit. I guess the only way to tell is to put a good lens on it that you know is OK?

Mark

[brachal]

Mark,

Unless you've got another lens or another body that you know to be good, there's really no way to tell -- at least none that I can think of. While it is possible for the Bessa's rangefinder to get out of whack, I think it's probably more likely that the Jupiter is off. You'll be able to check when the skopar shows up.

Good luck.

[Spyderman]

You can check the Bessa's RF calibration. Set the lens at infinity and check the RF patch on something distant like the moon - whether it seems to be in focus.

If this is right, the camera is most probably OK. There could still be a problem with close focus, but that is not very probable...

If you can pay the shipping I will gladly check and adjust your J-8.
I collimated both mine, and they are great performers (follow the "Jupiter-8" link in my signature). Soft until f/2.8 but quite sharp from there. There's not much to do about that - it's a 70 y.o. design.

[mrtoml]

Thanks for all your helpful replies.

I have just bought a 35mm skopar which should arrive in a couple of weeks. I will then test the camera again.

Originally Posted by Spyderman

If you can pay the shipping I will gladly check and adjust your J-8.
I collimated both mine, and they are great performers (follow the "Jupiter-8" link in my signature). Soft until f/2.8 but quite sharp from there. There's not much to do about that - it's a 70 y.o. design.

Spyderman, thanks for your very kind offer. When the skopar arrives and I am confident that it is not the body that is wrong I may well be in touch. I will send you a PM.

Best regards
Mark

[Spyderman]

Mark,

I'll tell you how to check whether the J-8 lens is bad or not.

1) mount J-8 lens on your camera & set it to infinity
2) open camera back
3) take a cable release
4) open the shutter on B and lock the cable release to keep the shutter open
5) take a transparent tape
5a) make a cross (or some kind of line) on the tape with a marker pen
5b) place the tape on the film rails of your camera (where the film usually sits) so that the cross (or the mark) is right in the middle of the frame mask
6) take a SLR (borrow one) with a tele lens (between 50 and 200)
7) set the lens on SLR at infinity
8) put the two cameras with lenses facing each other
9) look in the SLR viewfinder and check whether the cross (the mark on the tape) you see is sharp. If the SLR has a split-circle focussing aid that should help.
10) try focussing the Jupiter lens: does it help bring the cross in focus?

If the cross (or any mark) on the tape is in focus when both lenses are at infinity, then the J-8 is OK. If you can bring it in focus by focusing the J-8 then its shims are too thin and it needs an aditional shim. If the image gets even worse by focusing the Jupiter - the shim must be made thinner (sanded down).

This is an easy test which you can do at home at no expense. Try it and let us know.

PS: film rails are the ones which are the closest to the frame mask.

[mrtoml]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Mark,
This is an easy test which you can do at home at no expense. Try it and let us know.

Thanks again.

I just did this and according to this test the lens is OK. The cross I put on the tape was perfectly in focus.

So does this mean the Bessa body is out? And if so can I do anything about it?

Mark

[AirTimid]

Could your J-8 just be soft wide open? From your scans, f11 looks reasonable sharp, even f5.6 looks okay.

[mrtoml]

Originally Posted by AirTimid

Could your J-8 just be soft wide open? From your scans, f11 looks reasonable sharp, even f5.6 looks okay.

Hi

I think you are right and it could just be a soft lens, but I don't think f5.6 is really 'wide open'. I didn't find the f5.6 shots to be acceptable, but the f8 ones were OK and there was a slight but noticeable improvement between f8 and f11. There is no point in having a lens if it is too unreliable - unless you like the effect, but I have a Holga and a Diana for that Spyderman implies that it shouldn't be too bad at 2.8 and I could even live with f4.

Also bear in mind that the tests were taken with the camera mounted on a tripod and pointing at a perfectly perpendicular stationary object. In the real world when you are handholding in the street in the cold maybe using 1/30th second and you have to stop down to f8 or f11 on a cloudy day you might as well forget it

I just heard that the J8 was supposed to be a sharp lens (if you get a good copy). It's not the end of the world as these lenses are cheap and I didn't pay much for it. I am just trying to get to the bottom the problem so I can fix it and move on; and I guess I probably need a new 50mm CV lens to be sure. As I said I am new to RFs and don't know what is wrong. If the camera body is wrong then that's more serious, but I don't see how I can find this out without buying a new lens.

I like the feel of the Bessa and it is easier than carrying my SLR rig around in the street. That's what I got it for and the fact that it is supposed to take sharp photos. Also there are places I go where I would not risk taking my 5D and L glass. I don't mind building up a modest collection of LTM lenses (in hopeful anticipation of digital RFs becoming more widely available in the future). I also like the look of film as well as digital and already have scanners etc. so most of the investment required is already there.

Cheers
Mark

[Spyderman]

1.) have you checked RF calibration of Bessa body?

2.) If you don't mind another film test - do it this way:
- get beer cans or whiskey bottles and arrange them on a table like this:
_____o
____o
___O camera here -> X
__o
_o
and focus on the big "O" bottle. This way you will know if it's just a soft image, or the plane of focus is somewhere in front or behind "O"

Try this at various distances like 1m, 2m, 3m, 5m. This might reveal the mystery...

PS: Focussing on newspaper parallel to the film plane shows nothing. Just a slight focussing error and it comes out soft.

[mrtoml]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

1.) have you checked RF calibration of Bessa body?

2.) If you don't mind another film test - do it this way:
- get beer cans or whiskey bottles and arrange them on a table like this:
_____o
____o
___O camera here -> X
__o
_o
and focus on the big "O" bottle. This way you will know if it's just a soft image, or the plane of focus is somewhere in front or behind "O"

Try this at various distances like 1m, 2m, 3m, 5m. This might reveal the mystery...

Thanks for your reply. I will try the test you mentioned tomorrow. I agree that it would help.

PS: Focussing on newspaper parallel to the film plane shows nothing. Just a slight focussing error and it comes out soft.

I don't agree with this. At f5.6 you would have to be way off with your focus to miss a newspaper pinned to a wall using a tripod and a cable release. The depth of field at 3m is 2.5m-3.75m in focus. Even at f4 the dof is 2.63-3.49m. Or are RFs really that difficult to focus

This test is also useful for checking things like lens distortion, vignetting and edge softness. I use it to test my slr lenses all the time.

Best
Mark

[Spyderman]

I don't agree with this. At f5.6 you would have to be way off with your focus to miss a newspaper pinned to a wall using a tripod and a cable release. The depth of field at 3m is 2.5m-3.75m in focus. Even at f4 the dof is 2.63-3.49m. Or are RFs really that difficult to focus

This test is also useful for checking things like lens distortion, vignetting and edge softness. I use it to test my slr lenses all the time.

You're right. Sorry for my previous statement.

But if you want to check focussing, it is better wide open - so that the focussing error really shows. I don't see a point in testing focussing with stopped down lens. You won't be able to tell where the plane of focus is...

[mrtoml]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

You're right. Sorry for my previous statement.

But if you want to check focussing, it is better wide open - so that the focussing error really shows. I don't see a point in testing focussing with stopped down lens. You won't be able to tell where the plane of focus is...

Point taken. I'll try your test and let you know how it goes.

[mrtoml]

I got hold of a 50mm Nokton today so in my lens test I could compare my suspect J-8 with the Nokton.

The J-8 seems to be focussing quite a few inches behind where it's supposed to while the Nokton seems more or less OK within a certain margin of error - it might be focussing a little in front (a couple of inches which could be my error).

Below are 2 cropped scans both at f2 using Spyderman's beer bottle test. I focussed on the label of the bottle with the film canister cap on top of it. In both cases the distance was around 1.4m. I used a tripod and cable release and didn't move the camera in between shots.

The Nokton scan looks like the correct bottle is in focus although the bottle in front also seems in focus, while the J-8 is softer overall and seems to be focussing on the 2nd bottle behind which is much worse. The J-8 scans are still out at higher f stops whereas the Nokton just improves.

So can I conclude that the J-8 is out? Assuming that I focussed reasonably correctly that is . I can live with the Nokton as it is, but at some point I guess I should get the Bessa body checked out. Does anyone know who can do this in the UK?