Shutter speeds on Kiev-4AM

[joey]

Pardon my ignorance. I've recieved my first Kiev earlier this morning. I am having a problem setting shutter speeds on Kiev-4AM. I found instruction manual on the net which is the same for all Kiev-4, Kiev-4A, Kiev-4M and Kiev-4AM.

Here's the extract from the manual:

Shutter speed selection is done through the knob 6 as follows:
Raise the knob 6 by the edges (fig. 13), and turn it so that the black dot on it points to the number of the chosen shutter speed, and lower the knob back.
The advance knob should be turned clockwise before changing shutter speeds. In this state, the shutter speed can be set more correctly. The shutter speed can be set with the shutter either cocked or fired. However, it is recommended that the shutter speed be changed with the shutter cocked.

It's very difficult to raise the knob on my camera, there's no black dot, there's a red arrow on the top plate next to the knob. Anyway, the problem with this method

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/kiev-4/kieva-a.htm

This is what I do:

I advance the film, I do not raise the knob; instead I cock the shutter and continue to turn the knob till the required speed is selected. The problem with this method is that I cannot turn beyond 1/10 sec. Occasionaly, the shutter spee remains at lower speeds when I pre-set it to 1/500 or 1/250.
I can't figure out what needs to be done to set the shutter speed on this camera.

Can someone help me to select the shutter speed on this camera? Thanks!

[joey]

I think I worked how selection of shutter speeds is done on this camera.

Pre-set the shutter speed.
Release the shutter
Pull the knob once and release it. (Without pulling up, the shutters speeds will not be working properly when higher speeds are selected)
Turn the knob clockwise till it stops (advancing film)
Cock the shutter
Turn the shutter more to select shutter speed.

[40oz]

It sounds like you aren't setting the shutter speed, you are merely only partially winding it. You have 1/10 selected, but rather than winding it all the way around, you stop at some other number. This is not the same as selecting the speed. You need to wind it all the way around until it stops. Then you can lift the dial and turn it to the desired speed. Do not lift the dial until you have fully wound the knob all the way around. It will properly wind the higher speeds without lifting the knob. You can certainly lift the knob every time you wind the film, but I don't know why you would go through the extra hassle. It's not neccessary, and I wouldn't even call it advisable.

Caveat - I have a Kiev 4 and 4a, but AFAIK, the knob shapes might have changed but the mechanism is identical. The "M" models you align the speed on the dial to the arrow marked on the body.

On mine, I wind the knob until it stops. This advances the film and cocks the shutter. Then, I lift the knob and turn it to the desired speed. It only lifts up a little bit, and there is a fairly heavy spring pulling it down. To go from say 1000 to 25, I turn the knob clockwise. To go from 25 back to 1000, it turns counter-cockwise. In other words, for setting shutter speed, you go the shortest distance, you don't try to go the long way around. I only set shutter speed after winding - the way the mechanism works, it makes no sense to try to do it before winding. When setting the speed, lifting and turning to the left there is resistance, as if it is winding a mechanism, while turning to the right it is free, as if it is unwinding.


One of my Kiev's had apparently been sitting for some time, so the shutter selection was a bit tough at first. As I used the camera, it loosened up and now works fine. What I tend to do with it is lift the knob and turn it to the general area of the desired speed, and then turn it past the mark, letting it find the groove and click back down on it's own. To select 1000, I turn it as far as it wants to go to the left (counter-clockwise), then coax it back to the right until it settles into its slot.

[cbass]

Look for a tiny black dot under the knurled edge of the winding dial. That's your speed inidcator. If the dot is worn off on your camera then look for a slightly flattened spot under the edge of the dial.

[40oz]

Originally Posted by cbass

Look for a tiny black dot under the knurled edge of the winding dial. That's your speed inidcator. If the dot is worn off on your camera then look for a slightly flattened spot under the edge of the dial.

he's got a newer "M" model, the winding/speed select knob has changed. See: http://westfordcomp.com/kiev4m/

[cbass]

Originally Posted by 40oz

he's got a newer "M" model, the winding/speed select knob has changed. See: http://westfordcomp.com/kiev4m/

Yikes! Thanks for the correction, 40.

Don't listen to me...II'm still new to the whole Kiev experience .

[ZorkiKat]

Quote:
Shutter speed selection is done through the knob 6 as follows:
Raise the knob 6 by the edges (fig. 13), and turn it so that the black dot on it points to the number of the chosen shutter speed, and lower the knob back.
The advance knob should be turned clockwise before changing shutter speeds. In this state, the shutter speed can be set more correctly. The shutter speed can be set with the shutter either cocked or fired. However, it is recommended that the shutter speed be changed with the shutter cocked.


It's very difficult to raise the knob on my camera, there's no black dot, there's a red arrow on the top plate next to the knob. Anyway, the problem with this method

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/kiev-4/kieva-a.htm

That's the manual which I helped Andrey Ostapenko translate. My name is spelled wrong at the bottom of the page ("JAWER" instead of "JAVIER")

It also contains some annotations in the camera care section I inserted (such as the issue of storing cameras with their cases in tropical weather, the use of skylight filters over the lens, etc).

The translated manuscript was for the Kiev 4 and 4a. Thus you would not find the black dot which marked the shutter speeds in these cameras in your Kiev 4aM. Your camera would have the arrow and it's on the dial. The instructions would be the same, but instead of looking for the dot, you simply line the speeds with the arrow.

If you find it difficult to raise the dial, it must be due to the way your camera was made. Kiev 4aM dials are -typically- harder to turn.

Jay

[rolleistef]

Despite a common legend, changing the shutter speed before winding won't arm your camera. It is only a matter of something that doesn't engage completely. I don't know what it changes, the shutter speed is changed anyway. Well, there is a little mechanism that clics in, if you want it in the normal position and that you changed the shutter speed before winding, pull the speed selector. You may huge a little clac, it's the mechanism engaging.
cheers
stéphane

[40oz]

Yes, I wasn't trying to imply that doing so risked damage, per se. Merely that there is no need to lift the wheel for winding. And behavior is, at least on mine, erratic at best when the dial is lifted for winding. The shutter speed changes, and the shutter doesn't appear to cock properly every time. I would not reccommend this method, purely from a functionality stand.

[Xmas]

The more exact rule is that the contax II(III)/Kiev shutter speed should not be changed part way through winding (whereas I think the IIa(IIIa) shutter speed may be changed part way through winding).
I dont think there is a risk of physical damage, instead the shutter logic will not be in the correct state and you may get an arbitary speed.
If the shutter is badly worn or not adjusted exactly then there is a risk that the logic will not be in the correct state and you may get an arbitary speed, after you change the shutter speed after winding! It should reset itself on the 2nd attempt at the same speed.

These rules give me a headache even when I have the shutter module out of a camera... and look at the little wheels.

So one should wind in one operation and set the shutter speed before or after and not during winding, I'd not temp fate with a nice IIa either...

Normally I leave the speed at 1/125 or 1/250 or 1/10 etc. and change the f number, I normally use chrome film, I dont need risk.

Noel

[40oz]

the thing is, you can't reliably set the shutter speed prior to fully winding. There's no noticeable detent. You have no way of knowing if the crown under the knob has moved, so you still have to check after winding to see what speed is actually selected, and you still don't know if that speed is actually selected. It just seems obvious to me that the shutter speed should be set after winding. The fact that it might be possible to do so prior to winding is not useful knowledge, IMHO. The fact that you don't risk damaging anything is comforting, but hardly enabling, and hardly a reason to do so.

Sitting here playing with my Kiev 4 and 4a, I cannot reliably set the shutter speed until after the camera is fully wound. Sometimes it works, sometimes it shows 1/5th after the first wind, and 1/25th after the second, occasionally requiring another shutter press to finish the wind. I can't see how it is remotely helpful to anyone to suggest they set the shutter speed without first fully winding the camera. All that does is set a person up for disappointment and an erroneous belief their camera is defective when the shutter acts erratic.

I would respectfully submit the "rule" should state "fully wind the camera before attempting to select shutter speed." This would appear to be valid advice no matter what camera one uses, as I know of no camera that would suffer if followed.

[Xmas]

40oz
I'll have to check my 4am but before I do I dont recall having any problem, there is nothing to stop the speed setting also causing some winding on which would be a problem, but I've not noticed this.
Cannot you set the shutter when the (your) 4am is not wound on?
Noel

[40oz]

I can set it, but as you stated, it is not what I would call reliable. I went through a period when I thought the camera was "tempermental." It turned out the cause was user error, me trying to change shutter speeds without checking to see that the camera was first fully wound. Once I started doing that check, it ceased causing me pain. The problem is apparently that the shutter speed knob wasn't always lifted all the way, and the crown under the knob would turn, winding the film, while I was turning the knob to select a slower speed. So when the knob was lowered, it would not always be at the speed I thought.

I'm certainly not questioning your knowledge. This is the problem I was having: "there is nothing to stop the speed setting also causing some winding on which would be a problem"

While I acknowledge that one can, indeed, set the speed prior to winding, and if one is careful, it works fine, it just seems like a bad idea to let someone new to a camera of unknown provenance think that such usage is a recommended method. I mean, yes, if you know the camera inside and out, it can be done, and perhaps even accurately. But if you have never ever owned one before and aren't sure the thing even works, I don't think one should be attempting it. Does that make sense?

[Xmas]

40oz
You misunderstood panic for knowledge, I apologise. I dont do this but cannot see why it would not be safe. I do accept it is exposed:

- if you dont lift the dial properly or
- have grit or other problem with the winder/mechanism.

I was worried your camera had a problem. I frequently have problems with (several of) mine, e.g. sticking between speeds in the up position. But there is a positive detent in your camera, a query?

I operate by leaving the speed fixed and varying f number so I'm even more conservative than you but I think it is safe to set the speed any way it is merely not desirable when the shutter is not wound on and 'locked'. And I always set mine wound on accepting that the first shot may be off speed.

I think we may be agreeing?

If we have new users I'd warn about using too much force if the camera jams, as a new part will be needed if you snap of the finger that drops into the detent...

Noel

[40oz]

oh yeah, I think we agree. I just didn't want you to think I don't have any respect for what you were posting

My Kievs work great. It took me a bit of reading and experimentation to work out how they operate, and now everything is good. The meter on my Kiev 4 is even accurate. I think I have a small light leak in the take-up spool on one, but it is a little thing, and can be fixed.

As far as using too much force: I just tore the perforations out of the last frame on two consecutive rolls of film because I thought it was just "stuck" lol. I must now acknowledge that "stuck" commonly means "done with roll."