Don't know what to think of ZI

[Krosya]

Hi All,
A lil while back I started a thread about ZI justification. I read all the posts. I also read many other threads. I even decided that I could live with the louder and battery dependent shutter of the ZI. I really do like most of what I read about it.......
BUT....... what still bothers me is that there rather many stories of poor quality control - cameras stop working shortly after arrival, out of the box RF missalignment, poor wear - saw photos here of ZI being pretty worn after 2 weeks (?) of serious use. Some post that after trying it - went back to Leica. I wonder why? any comments on this?
I also see that some ZI owners try to justify ZI no matter what. Is it just because you have it and not Leica? I know - main point of ZI is a great RF/VF. But as I have no opportunity to try it side by side with my M3 - will it be significantly better in that respect?
I need a camera with good long RF as I use long and/or fast lenses. I wouldn't mind having AE mode - hence ZI is a candidate. Bessas are out since they have short RF base. I also would like to have a camera that is M mount and will be good for wide angle lenses as well, as M3 is not terribly great for that.
Like I said, I'm almost sold on a ZI, but some quality issues I read about bother me. Is there a good place in USA to buy it from, but I can return it EASY if I don't like it or it has issues? I wish I had a chance to actually handle one to make a final decision. And while it's cheaper than let's say M7, at $1200 I really don't want to get a lemon. BTW, M7 is a bit too pricey for me.
Any advice?

[back alley]

i'm not sure why you're bringing all this up again.

what could we possibly add that might help?

i have 2 zi bodies. the first one went back because it's focus was off at infinity.
the replacement was perfect as was the second body and i have not had any problems since.
my first body is a year old and has had weekend use since i got it and i carry it most days weather i shoot it or not.
it still looks new but then i'm not a 20 year old on the fly in exotic locales.
i have 3 zm lenses and they are great - better and sharper than i am.
my 50 had some problems when it arrived, i sent it back and the replacement has been perfect since.

despite living in a large canadian city there are no hands on rf cameras locally to play with, except a leica m7. it's nice but i'm happy with the zeiss.

no one can make this decision any easier for you.
take a chance.
bite the bullet.
it's a risk for sure.

[ghost]

another victim of internet photography forums.

[quattro98]

The information is out there & it's up to you to decide what is best for you. There are many ZI owners happy with the camera, even if some of them had to get early problems resolved. There are people who have used both the ZI or an MP/M7 & decided on the Leica, while others have chosen the Zeiss.

[jano]

If you have a way to test-handle the camera at a nearby (or longer schlepp-distance) store, I'd highly recommend you do that. With you using longer focal lengths, perhaps an slr would be more appropriate, and you can get a cheaper rangefinder for the wide angle stuff I've been happy with the ZI, have had it for over a year, and it's held up well. In Joe's words, I'm a 20-something kid that's taken it to a few "exotic" places, but I haven't shot anywere near what Vlad has (I've put maybe 30-60 rolls through mine over the last year). However, been through bumps and bruises, and so far so good. I will tell you, however, I'm somewhat disappointed with color film, and basically sticking only to b&w with this now. Color is just way too much work and takes too long, so that's where digital works better for me Yeah, I had to put that in

I know it won't help you much, but again.. if you can, go test drive it first. And make sure you save your impressions until AFTER you put a lens on it! (i.e. don't handle the camera without a lens like many ding-dongs do and then criticize that it's light. How many photos do you actually take without a lens mounted on the camera?!)
Jano

[back alley]

jano, i didn't realize you were such a young pup!!

[Krosya]

Originally Posted by back alley

i'm not sure why you're bringing all this up again.

what could we possibly add that might help?

i have 2 zi bodies. the first one went back because it's focus was off at infinity.
the replacement was perfect as was the second body and i have not had any problems since.
my first body is a year old and has had weekend use since i got it and i carry it most days weather i shoot it or not.
it still looks new but then i'm not a 20 year old on the fly in exotic locales.
i have 3 zm lenses and they are great - better and sharper than i am.
my 50 had some problems when it arrived, i sent it back and the replacement has been perfect since.

despite living in a large canadian city there are no hands on rf cameras locally to play with, except a leica m7. it's nice but i'm happy with the zeiss.

no one can make this decision any easier for you.
take a chance.
bite the bullet.
it's a risk for sure.

Well, thats exactly why I bring it up - to get a bit more feedback. Are the problem with ZI only related to early ones? Now all come problem free?
I also keep hoping to hear of a place that - a) sells ZI at a good price and b) has a reasonable return policy. Anyone knows one?
And you are right - it is a risk. And had it been priced like Bessa - it's have easier time "biting bullet". I did with Bessa a while back, as there was none avalible localy. But that was much cheaper risk. To get stuck with a camera that costs $1200 and either has problems, so I have to send it back and forth or it simply doesn't work for me - not my idea of fun.
So, I hope to hear more from Leica users that tried ZI and either kept it or not - more importantly - why so?
I appologize if my questions annoy someone here, so please ignore my questions. But I would rather get as much info as I can before spending my money.
Thanks

[back alley]

in the last thread, we mentioned tony at popflash.
that's your best bet for a camera at a good price. maybe stephen at cameraquest has some left from when he sold them, also at a good price.
elsewhere you will pay more.
as to annoying, it's annoying that you didn't read the entire prior thread to find that info.

most here are fine with answering questions, that's part of the forum thing.
but it seems like you're asking for something more than can be offered on the net.
mazda or toyota, chev or dodge, zeiss or leica.

for me...mazda, dodge, zeiss.

joe

[jano]

Originally Posted by back alley

jano, i didn't realize you were such a young pup!!

Not that young.. I'll be 29 in March But I still feel and act like I'm 12.

Oh.. for me, just because I'm so posh.. it's aston martin, mbz, and bentley and jaguar, before they became ford

[mervynyan]

as you said, if you are almost sold, in other words, you are not sold. if you are buying something not entirely sure, don't buy it, or explore the alternatives, you can always get back to what you were looking for before. otherwise you are wasting the money.

my 2 cents-

[john_nyc]

Krosya-

It sounds to me like you really want an M7, but that there's a struggle going on in your head while you try to justify the ZI.

On the one hand you want a long base RF with AE, which the ZI certainly qualifies as. It also has a very bright viewfinder. I was able to directly compare it to that of an M6 classic, and the difference was obvious.

On the other hand, you have the bad experiences of others to provide you with the necessary hesitation.

I myself went through 2 bad ZI's to get to the one I have now. I think the benefits of the ZI make the inconvenience worthwhile. However, I have the luxury of living in Manhattan so an exchange was just a cabride away.

In my opinion, what your decision comes down to is this:

If your need for an RF with AE overrides your need for it to be a Leica, then get the ZI from a dealer that you know will accept returns.

If your need for a Leica is greater than the need for AE, then get an M6.

If your need for both Leica and AE are equal, then save your pennies, off some other gear on the bay or the RF classifieds, and get the M7.

John

[Trius]

Were I to purchase a ZI, I am 90%+ certain it would be from Tony at Popflash. While I live in a "photgraphic/imaging centre", there aint much more than digicams here, and dealing with returns to a NYC vendor doesn't appeal to me since Photovillage doesn't deal in the ZI. Even a Toronto dealer would be more convenient to me than NYC, but I don't think anyone there carries it.

To me the issue is that film RFs are a bit of a niche product in the scheme of things, so you have to put up with limited distribution channels, which inherently means that sometimes you have to go through some iterations to get an example in perfect shape. I think if you just face that as a reality rather than wrap up the situation in angst, it will be easier. The world is essentially round, but it's not perfectly round.

[Krosya]

John, Trius,
Thank you for your replys.
John - you pretty much got it right on the money - my thinking exactly.
I suppose I will have to think more, maybe wait and see how Ikon works out for more people from the reliability point of view.
And I suppose Popflash is the dealer of choice here. I was hoping for more options, but......Well, maybe they are good, since many people here seem to deal with them.
Anyway, thank you all for kind advice.

[Joerg]

Originally Posted by Trius

since Photovillage doesn't deal in the ZI.

Well I bought a Zi from Photovillage and it is still on their website !

Ciao

Joerg

[Kyle]

I owned a ZI for about 6 months and shot with it a lot and loved it. The finder was absolutely amazing! In the end, I sold it to get an MP. Why? I just wanted a Leica. It doesn't do anything better than the ZI, I just like the feel, the heft, the operation, and the heritage of a Leica. Completely irrational, I know, but its my money and I'll do what I want with it!

The ZI is a fine camera and I could have been satisfied with using it for as long as it lasted, if only that darn black paint MP hadn't came along. The finder is larger than the MP, and both are as equally bright and clear.

[Trius]

Jeorg: Thanks for the correction. I took a quick look at their site but didn't see it. Show you how well I looked! ;-)

[Joerg]

Trius,

you are welcome!
I have dealt with both photovillage and popflash and both are highly recommended!!!!

Ciao

joerg

[x-ray]

I purchased a new ZI in early November form Tony. Tony is absolute tops in service. I also have 5 M's including two a la carte MP's with .85x vf. I've shot leicas profesionally for nearly four decades and absolutely love them. Since receiving my ZI I've hardly shot with my MP's. I still love them but the ZI's RF is so much bigger and more spacious and more accurate that I feel cramped when looking through the MP's. The eyepiece / VF of the ZI could be classed as a high eyepoint finder. The body is lighter and the controlls are like butter. No issues in any way and I've shot around 50+ rolls. I also like the frame lines of the ZI which are on par with my old M2 and 3. I dislike the only partial bottom lines of my M6's 28 frame line and MP's 35 frame line. Even a leica will look like crap if it's beat around. The one camera on this forum that looks like it's been through the war must have been seriously abused.

Even Leica makes some duds. Read some on various leica forums and threads and consider the M8 and you'll quickly see leica has their problems too.

I highly recommend the ZI and Tony Rose.

[Huck Finn]

Originally Posted by Krosya

Hi All,
A lil while back I started a thread about ZI justification. I read all the posts. I also read many other threads. I even decided that I could live with the louder and battery dependent shutter of the ZI. I really do like most of what I read about it.......
BUT....... what still bothers me is that there rather many stories of poor quality control - cameras stop working shortly after arrival, out of the box RF missalignment, poor wear - saw photos here of ZI being pretty worn after 2 weeks (?) of serious use. Some post that after trying it - went back to Leica. I wonder why? any comments on this?

I suggest that you talk to dealers for a reality check. Tony Rose at Popflash sells both Leica & Zeiss Ikon. Same for Rich Pinto at Photo Village. I bought my Zeiss Ikon over a year ago from Dr. Joseph Yao, the highly respected Leica dealer in Hong Kong who can be reached at joseph@yao.com. I have dealt with Tony, Rich, & Dr. Yao at one time or another. All provide exceptional customer service & superb customer relations. They will give you all the time you need - the first two by phone or e-mail, Dr. Yao by e-mail only. All three are patient & honest. Ask them to compare issues with the ZI & with Leica cameras. Dr. Yao, for example, advised me not to put my camera on the floor of my car because the rangefinder alignment can be thrown off by the vibrations from the car ride. His prior experience with this happening was with Leicas, not with ZI's.

These dealers are in the best position to tell you what your risk is of problems with the ZI & how this risk compares with Leica. Stories of problems get posted on the internet with great rapidity & get passed on and repeated even faster. This has always been the case with news stories. Good news doesn't get printed; bad news does.

You must read more posts than I do because I haven't read any of Zeiss Ikons not working. I have read only one of problems with wear - Vladimir's - & actually the pictures weren't as bad as what I imagined after reading his posts. He shot 20 rolls a day for two weeks in a tropical environment with extremes of heat. Are you planning to do that? This is not the kind of normal use that Zeiss Ikons were designed for; rangefinders - be they Leica, Zeiss, or whatever - are no longer the camera of choice for photojournalists. Even they would be challenged to match Vladimir's usage on his trip to India. Nor do I know what other substances his camera was in contact with on this trip. But even in the day when Leicas were still used by photojournalists many decades ago, they too wore & the pictures of them in abused condition are still legendary.

As far as rangefinder misalignment is concerned, this is not unique to ZI's. Read the posts on the message boards on Leica's own corporate website. Leica's are not immune from problems; they have their shrare. As Dr. Yao suggested to me, the rangefinder is a delicate instrument & can be thrown out of alignment by a variety of circumstances. Maybe one of the contributing reasons why photographers switched to SLRs many decades ago. My own theory is that we see increasing reports of this problem because of the increase in internet buying & that many of these problems occur in transit. But who knows? The dealers probably do because they get them back as returns from complaining customers & they can put it in terms of percentage of sales. They have no reason to be dishonest about this because they'll be at least as happy to sell you a Leica as a ZI.

I also see that some ZI owners try to justify ZI no matter what. Is it just because you have it and not Leica? I know - main point of ZI is a great RF/VF. But as I have no opportunity to try it side by side with my M3 - will it be significantly better in that respect?

Hmmm . . . Justify? A few of us ZI owners persist in sharing our knowledge of the camera & our experiences with it; I imagine we say positive things because we're happy with our cameras. Most other saner users have moved on. I try to limit my comments to the facts as I know them & try not to be defensive - or as you put it: to justify. Will a ZI be significantly better than your M3? I have no idea because I don't have an M3. But it will be different than an M3 as you know - meter, 28 & 35 frame lines, AE. And it will have the same immediacy of response because it is the only camera in current manufacture other than a Leica M that has essentailly no lag time. It will also be different. Which camera is right for any of us is a matter of preference. Did you ever have to make up your mind?

I need a camera with good long RF as I use long and/or fast lenses. I wouldn't mind having AE mode - hence ZI is a candidate. Bessas are out since they have short RF base. I also would like to have a camera that is M mount and will be good for wide angle lenses as well, as M3 is not terribly great for that.
Like I said, I'm almost sold on a ZI, but some quality issues I read about bother me. Is there a good place in USA to buy it from, but I can return it EASY if I don't like it or it has issues? I wish I had a chance to actually handle one to make a final decision. And while it's cheaper than let's say M7, at $1200 I really don't want to get a lemon. BTW, M7 is a bit too pricey for me.
Any advice?

I once bought a second Nikon FM3a from Adorama because i came to my senses after a week & realized I didn't need two. They took the camera back no qustions asked. I just paid for the shipping. Each dealer has their own return policy. Some charge a restocking fee to protect customers from taking a camera essentially as a free rental & then returning it. Some just rent straight out. Research the return policies & you will get your answer. B&H may be a possibility.

Much like you, I wanted a long base rangefinder & I wasn't going to pay Leica prices. I also didn't want to buy on the used market. As much as you may be concerned abut QC, at least a new Zeiss Ikon comes with a warranty. If there is a problem fresh out of the box or 6 months down the road, you're covered.

I'll make you an offer right now. If you live in the Northeastern USA, I am willing to meet you at a mutually agreeable time so you can try out my ZI to see how you like it. No strings attached. My guess is that wherever you live, you might find an RFF member who will do the same. I can't, however, assuage your doubts about reliability. Only you can deal with that one. Do your research & let your best judgment prevail.

Best of luck with your decision.

[sherm]

Kroysa:

It's sounds that $$$$ is a consideration and it usually is for all of us at one point or another. But really if you want AE then either the M7 or the ZI are your only two choices.

If you have the funds then buy the M7. This is every RFF'rs dream so just hurry up and get it over with. If you don't buy the ZI. You won't be dissapointed; I've owned both and for weekend shooting the ZI is very substantial. The other thing to remember is the "M" mount. Don't put too much into the body decision, remember that you have access to Leica glass which is the real reason that you go with Leica in the first place!! Unless you're a pro that will use the camera five days a week continuously the M7 is definately overkill. It's just the idea that it's a Leica. Kyle referred to this in his thread.

Don't try and justify it too long.... film may be out of production before you make your decision Give in to GAS..... we all have now it's your turn.

Scott

[ZeissFan]

I think I gave a rather curt answer to your first inquiry.

Sherm makes a good point. And to build on what he said, give some thought about which camera you really would like to buy. If it's the M7 that you really want, then don't settle for anything less.

Buying anything else could be a waste of money, because it's very likely that at some point, you'll end up with an M7. And if you buy a Bessa R2A/R3A or the Zeiss Ikon first, you will eventually sell it -- at a loss -- and then buy the M7.

Nearly any camera can have some kind of problem out of the box. Much can happen after the camera leaves the factory. It's at the mercy of the roughest handler in the delivery system. It might get very gentle treatment, or the box of cameras might be slammed onto a container ship or toppled over while being separated from other boxes.

A perusal of Internet groups will turn up complaints about the Leica MP arriving with viewfinders afflicted with internal dust. As well, there were quite a few reports of new Canon Digital Rebel owners finding that their camera had a considerable amount of dust on the sensor out of the box.

However, I will concede that Cosina has developed a poor reputation for rangefinder calibration. Whether reports of rangefinder problems with the Zeiss Ikon is a result of shipping issues or continued poor assembly and poor quality control by Cosina workers isn't yet clear. Maybe a combination.

But the issues appear to have human error involved rather than poor design.

[ghost]

cachet will never be the zeiss ikon's strong point, but it's got a lot going for it.

[Turtle]

If you are hankering after an M7...hold out until you can afford one. I have been there so many times with selling up and ending up with what I always had wanted! None of us are immune!
If you are concerned about reliability, it seems most issues reported with the Z1 are not reliability as such but QC or 'out of the box issues'. If you get a lemon, you can sling it back in the post. If you buy in person you can check RF alignment before leaving the store. There is a huge price difference between teh Z1 and an M7, enough for a set of ZM lenses in fact. You have to consider this from a practical perspective.

I own an MP and went for leica for the bodies not the lenses! I have mainly ZM lenses which I am very pleased with. They are just as well made as my one leica lens - 90 elmarit M...and actually smoother if I had to make a call. Performance is superb. I will admit my 50 planar is being returned for a spec of internal dust, but once sorted under warranty, that is done!

[Krosya]

Originally Posted by Huck Finn

I'll make you an offer right now. If you live in the Northeastern USA, I am willing to meet you at a mutually agreeable time so you can try out my ZI to see how you like it. No strings attached. My guess is that wherever you live, you might find an RFF member who will do the same. I can't, however, assuage your doubts about reliability. Only you can deal with that one. Do your research & let your best judgment prevail.

Best of luck with your decision.

Thank you for your offer. I really am tempted to to so, but I don't live close enough to take you up on it.
So, as you and many suggested - I will do more research, while trying to save more money for other options. Maybe I will come across an Ikon closer to my home. Or there is a choice to give up some features and get M6? While I really like the "package" that Ikon offers at the price - experiences of members such Avotius, where he had 3-4 duds in a row - just make me think too much.
If I didn't have my M3 - it would be soooo much easier to justify something, but as long as I have a good camera to use - it's gonna take longer.
Thanks again

[jano]

Where do you live? If it's southern CA, I'll extend the same invitation. Or maybe I may be traveling next year nearby, will check my schedule.