Help me with my math...

[geoabbott]

This is my first post after a few months of observing the comings and goings if this forum, and I'm in need of a little help in deciding whether to purchase a good user M6 or go for the M8. First, let me say I am a casual shooter,i.e. birthdays, family gatherings, and the odd weekend here and there, so let's call it 15-25 rolls of film per year. I don't know what film costs to process, scan, etc. but I'm gusessing about $20 per roll, so let's call it about $500 per year for film costs. If I were to keep the camera for, say 3 years, that would be $1500 in variable costs. I'm assuming an initial cost of a decent M6 to be about $1200, give or take, plus the cost of one or more M lenses, which could be migrated over to the M8, albeit with a different effective focal length.

Now let's say the M6 price drops during that time from $1200 to $800 and I decide to sell it to get a now used M8, which for sake of the discussion depreciates from $4800 to $2800. So, I've spent $1900 fixed and variable costs on the M6 plus $2800 for the now used M8, or $4700. Question: over three years, would you expect it to be that close? Accounting for it that way, it seems to me I'd be within shouting distance of going for the M8 now. On the other hand, getting a user M6 wouldn't shout "guess how much I cost!" to my wife.


Thoughts?

Regards,
George

[woodphoto]

You made my head hurt.......I say get both and buy your wife something shiny to distract her......thats what I do.

[rpsawin]

Wow...anyway, what do you want to get? Either path is fine. Each path has a cost associated with it and a risk/reward as well. Figure out what you want and then get a dark board or roll some dice to validate your choice...lol.

Good luck,

Bob

[woodphoto]

Originally Posted by rpsawin

Wow...anyway, what do you want to get? Either path is fine. Each path has a cost associated with it and a risk/reward as well. Figure out what you want and then get a dark board or roll some dice to validate your choice...lol.

Good luck,

Bob

Yeah Wow.......whats a dark board? the point of my ramble is no one can help.......we all go through this everytime we want some new toy.
And most of the responses are going to be like mine,a joke, or like bob's, saying both are good idea's, which doesn't help at all......

[reub2000]

Do you want to get the classic look of a film like Tri-X, print onto real photo paper, or do you want a digital picture that you can tinker with in an endless number of ways?

[J. Borger]

I always wonder if these people who rationalise the costs of a camera are accountants ... bookkeepers ...... For god sake it is a thing you use for hobby ....... it has to be a passionate decission, whatever you choose, not a decision of a minister of finance

[Dougg]

It all boils down to what you want; if you compromise on this and get something you'll not be totally delilghted/satisfied with, then you'll have regrets. Sometimes better just to do what you know you want. Go for the gold!

[ClaremontPhoto]

Originally Posted by geoabbott

...let me say I am a casual shooter,i.e. birthdays, family gatherings, and the odd weekend here and there...

You need an Olympus or Canon $25 to $50, or some one-uses.

[Finder]

I don' know. Which is easier to rationalize to your wife; $20 eavery now and again, or $600 for a Photoshop upgrade every year or so?

The economics of both film and digital depend on so many variables. With all the changing technology, I really don't think my digital friends are spending less on their photography compared to my film and darkroom.

[Xmas]

Dig cam will save you time you can shoot and USB to web, bubble or local news paper no delay.

Film cam you can have 50m pixels per shot with a good scanner, or use silver paper yourself, the darkroom and plasti and chemical bits and pieces are really cheap given people are passing away.

Do you want to waste time or save time. The silver print will startle young ones who have never seen except in musems.

Noel

P.S. dark (dart) board is not a quija board but a skill game, the film cam is similar it needs 180 every time - equivalent to home run.

[Toby]

For what you want to use it for, either is overkill. It's like buying a Bugatti to pick up your dry cleaning. For the price of an M6 you could pick up a DSLR with decent glass if you wanted to go the digital route. Have you got any M glass? that will really alter maths if you need to buy lenses as well.

[pfogle]

Well, I have to admit that, after using film (a lot!) for 30 years, I haven't touched a roll of film since 1998, and I am SO glad to have made the change

For me it's a no-brainer - YMMV

[vikasmg]

You've done the math but forgot the most important question: Which camera do you really want. Do you want to mess with film, pepers and chemicals in a dark room or to you want to mess with pixels on a PC. Both have their joys and pains...

[Andy Aitken]

Uh. Leica bought with heart not brain. Me drink beer. Beer good.

[jaapv]

Welcome on the forum George. An understandable question but I think you are approaching it from the wrong end. Photography is your (our) hobby and there is no way one can express that in money. I would say: If you can afford it and will add to the pleasure you feel in your hobby, go buy whatever you (after considering your wife) want. Nobody should care if you just want fondle whatever camera you get or want to outdo HCB. Money does not enter into it, except in terms of affordability.

[geoabbott]

Thank you for your resonses and for holding a mirror up to my approach; it's just that I routinely do that for most large purchase either/or decisions and the exercise has served me well over the years. What I didn't say and what may have lent a little texture to my analysis was that I am transitioning away from one hobby, golf (three shoulder surgeries and I can see the day where the pain will overtake the pleasure) to another. I've gone through a DSLR (too big) and a couple of p&s cameras ( no isolation of subject with w/a lenses) so a high quality rf seems to be the right fit.

Finder, your point about the slow bleed of $20 vs. the annual $600 upgrade makes some sense. Given that I'm drawn to b&w anyway, the M6 is probably going to satisfy me.

Best,
George

[rpsawin]

Originally Posted by woodphoto

Yeah Wow.......whats a dark board? the point of my ramble is no one can help.......we all go through this everytime we want some new toy.
And most of the responses are going to be like mine,a joke, or like bob's, saying both are good idea's, which doesn't help at all......

Ah...this should be a dart board. It would be a matter of choice as to a dark one or a light one. LOL I never laid claim to being an accurate typist.

Bob

[mad_boy]

Your math is correct, but not complete.

For the M8 you would need to add costs for a good qualtiy printer with ink (or alternatively the costs for printing a the lab)

And then a true bean-counter would argue that value in the future is not the same as the value of today because of the inflation.
Hence you should perform a 'Net present value" calculation (NPV in excel)
Using 4% inflation charge and:
- a spend of 1200 in year 1 for the M6
- a spend of 500 on film each year 1,2 and 3
- a revenue of 800 in year 4 for selling the M6
- a spend of 2800 in year 4 for the M8
gives a Current value of 4.251.
(not the 4700 which follows from the addition).
Hence getting the M8 now costs 550 extra which buys you a used lens.

But then, that is bean-counting language!
re-read the posts of others. This is a hobby, choose with your heart.
Otherwise you might find out that In that time you have used 25 rolls of film of 24 exposures is 600 Pictures. All in all each pic would have costed you 7$!!

Mad_boy (A simple technician, not a bean-counter buy the way)

[geoabbott]

Not to mention opportunity cost of investment foregone by buying the M8 instead of the M6. I didn't have my 12C calc. handy to do the details but I agree an NPV calculation is more accurate ( although your comment about ea pic costing $7 disregards the aquisition of the M8 and the subsequent "free" pics). And yet all seem to say don't consider the money if either choice is affordable. Good advice, reflecting upon it. I just hope I'm easily satisfied by my initial purchase, whatever it is, and that I'm eternally happy with the output that kit gives me. My history of golf club purchases would suggest otherwise, however.

Regards,
George

[devils-advocate]

From personal experience, I would say there is no camera purchase the photographer's mind cannot justify. I have the (filled) drawer and (depleted) bank accounts to back that up.

While I think digital is a far superior capture medium, I can't pretend for a second it is cheaper than film. That is only true for those who used to pass the cost of film on to their clients and now charge an equivlent digital capture fee which goes into their pocket to pay off the camera (which they also depreciate against their income).

For serious amatuers, or perhaps more accurately 'non-commercial', photographers, shooting digital is more expensive than a film-habit.

At the end of the day, economics have nothing to do with the decision to buy an M8. If you aren't making a living with your gear, and can't clearly afford it from your discretionary income/assets/trust fund/etc., don't do it.

[roblumba]

I'm a hobbyist that loves a good camera. I currently own a Canon 1DMII, 24-70 2.8, 70-200 2.8 and a 50 1.4. I plan to sell all of it and my Martin guitar (which I hardly ever play), to fund an M8 + 28 2.8 lens. I look forward to a more pleasant photophraphy experience with a camera I can actually take with my and my family on a typical weekend outing. My current Canon system use to go everywhere with me, but I have quickly grown tired of hauling it around, especially on plane trips, and see the M8 as the perfect system for someone like me. I also look forward to not feeling like a freak show when I pull out the massive Canon!

Do I still sound sane?

[jaapv]

Welcome rolumba!
Yes you sound as sane as most of us here (which may not be very sane by normal standards). The RF world is good for guys like you. But be prepared for a learning curve after SLR shooting! Btw. first name please!

[roblumba]

My first name is Rob. I'm in San Jose, CA. I think I'm ready to call Keeble and Schuchat at put down a deposit! Thank you all for your excellent conversations. Although I haven't put any feedback, I've been reading these M8 threads intensively the past week, plus visiting every site mentioned, including a subscription to Sean Reid's reviews.

[EmilGil]

Originally Posted by roblumba

[...] Do I still sound sane?

Yes, you do. But it's only a matter of time...

//Emil