Zorki-4 loading problem

[Apostata]

Hello,

So, I'm experiencing the first major problem I've had with my Zorki-4. I noticed, over time, that when I loaded a new roll of film, it would seem to take longer and longer for the shutter knob (or whatever it is that "catches" and makes the shutter knob turn as you wind the film) to "catch", often resulting in winding past the first four or five exposures on a roll of film. Now it simply won't catch. At all. I have no clue why or what I can do about it.

Anyone else experience this?

[wolves3012]

Originally Posted by Apostata

Hello,

So, I'm experiencing the first major problem I've had with my Zorki-4. I noticed, over time, that when I loaded a new roll of film, it would seem to take longer and longer for the shutter knob (or whatever it is that "catches" and makes the shutter knob turn as you wind the film) to "catch", often resulting in winding past the first four or five exposures on a roll of film. Now it simply won't catch. At all. I have no clue why or what I can do about it.

Anyone else experience this?

Does it catch and wind on OK after you fire the shutter? Is the shutter release a bit stiff or slow to return? The rewind effectively just holds the shutter release down. Open the back and look under the sprocket, you'll see two pins which should engage - is that where the problem lies? If so, the shutter release might not be returning fully or properly, for a couple of reasons.

[Apostata]

Here's the scoop (after a closer look):

When I turn the film advance knob (with or without film loaded), the spool turns as it should but the "sprocket" (which is connected to the shutter release button) doesn't turn as freely - it sorta sits there and eventually begins to turn but not with much force. This is with the rewind ring in full counter-clockwise (ie film loading) mode.

As for whether pressing the shutter release button allows the sprocket reel to catch - I cannot fire the shutter release button while loading. It seems I have to wait for (and here goes some clumsy description) the wheel at the centre of the shutter speed selector to turn around fully (which is the only sign I have that the sprocket reel has caught successfully) and then once it turns around fully I cannot turn the film advance wheel further (ie it's ready to take a picture).

In terms of "two pins" under the sprocket - I can only see one main "pin" which holds the sprocket reel in place (and seems to be affected by the position of the rewind ring).

Hope this helps.

[wolves3012]

Originally Posted by Apostata

Here's the scoop (after a closer look):

When I turn the film advance knob (with or without film loaded), the spool turns as it should but the "sprocket" (which is connected to the shutter release button) doesn't turn as freely - it sorta sits there and eventually begins to turn but not with much force. This is with the rewind ring in full counter-clockwise (ie film loading) mode.

As for whether pressing the shutter release button allows the sprocket reel to catch - I cannot fire the shutter release button while loading. It seems I have to wait for (and here goes some clumsy description) the wheel at the centre of the shutter speed selector to turn around fully (which is the only sign I have that the sprocket reel has caught successfully) and then once it turns around fully I cannot turn the film advance wheel further (ie it's ready to take a picture).

In terms of "two pins" under the sprocket - I can only see one main "pin" which holds the sprocket reel in place (and seems to be affected by the position of the rewind ring).

Hope this helps.

OK - here's what *should* happen - see if you can figure where your camera differs from this: Take the back off and forget putting film in. Turn it to "rewind" and you should find that (a) you can easily turn the sprocket (it's free-wheeling) and (b) if you try and wind on it does nothing. You should also be able to turn the spool with some resistance.

Next, put the rewind "off" i.e. as if you had loaded a film. Now if you try and turn the sprocket it may turn a little at first, then it should lock with a click after less than one turn. Now when you wind on it should turn along with the spool. You should still be able to turn the spool with some resistance but the sprocket should only go in the normal film-advance direction and with quite some resistance (you're actually winding the shutter if you do this).

Figure out which part of the above isn't true for your camera and let me know. From what you said I think the sprocket is not re-engaging the mechanism.

[Apostata]

Sorry for the late reply - this is the first time I've had an opportunity to check this out since you responded...

When the rewind ring is set to "rewind":

- when I turn the spool-knob, both the spool and the sprocket turn together with light resistance.
- the sprocket is not free-wheeling: it can only turn in the "normal" direction (ie forward) and turns in-step with the spool.

When the rewind ring is set to "normal" (ie forward):

- the sprocket can be easily turned forward or backward and is not locked in-step with the spool.
- when I turn the spool-knob, the sprocket doesn't move with it. It doesn't move at all.

Thoughts:

- I noticed that there is a shaft within the sprocket. There is an opening near the top where I can see a small black screw. When I adjust the rewind knob, the shaft/screw moves up (rewind) and down (normal). When it's "down", the screw is halfway. When it's "up", the screw is at the top of the opening.

This is all I can see - hope it helps. I can't figure it out

[Shadesofgrey]

Hi Apostata Hi wolves. I'm sitting here trying to make my test bed 4 do what Apostata is describing,. The only way I can come close is to leave the shutter button in the rewind position after returning the rewind collar back to the wind on position: don't know if this helps, hope so, leave a post if you sort it.
All the best.
B.

[Paul Connet]

Originally Posted by Apostata

Sorry for the late reply - this is the first time I've had an opportunity to check this out since you responded...
When the rewind ring is set to "rewind":
- when I turn the spool-knob, both the spool and the sprocket turn together with light resistance.
- the sprocket is not free-wheeling: it can only turn in the "normal" direction (ie forward) and turns in-step with the spool.

When the rewind ring is set to "normal" (ie forward):
- the sprocket can be easily turned forward or backward and is not locked in-step with the spool.
- when I turn the spool-knob, the sprocket doesn't move with it. It doesn't move at all.
Thoughts:
- I noticed that there is a shaft within the sprocket. There is an opening near the top where I can see a small black screw. When I adjust the rewind knob, the shaft/screw moves up (rewind) and down (normal). When it's "down", the screw is halfway. When it's "up", the screw is at the top of the opening.

This is all I can see - hope it helps. I can't figure it out

Hi Apostata,
I have a Z-4 that sometimes exhibits that same problem., but it seems that your explanation is backwards to what should be happening. When the rewind ring is set to rewind, (pushed down and turned clockwise) the sprocket should be free to turn independant from the wind knob/takeup spool. When the rewind ring is turned back, (counterclockwise) and rises to its normal position, the wind mechanism should be resetting such that turning the wind knob will move the sprocket and the takeup spool together in a winding direction. The problem that I had and still have sometimes is that the mechanism does not reset all the way. It is evidenced by the flat spring at the bottom of the shutter crate is not pushing the sprocket shaft all the way up. The flat spring has to be flat against the bottom of the shutter crate, and the small black screw you noted in the slot of the sprocket has to be at the top of the slot. At least on my Z4, when those conditions are met, it will wind and fire as it should. I only have the problem sometimes when removing a roll and loading a new roll, and usually some fiddling with the sprocket shaft and the various knobs will get everything back where it belongs. Probably CLA time but I have been to lazy to pull it apart.

Good luck,
Paul C.

[Apostata]

Originally Posted by Paul Connet

Hi Apostata,
I have a Z-4 that sometimes exhibits that same problem., but it seems that your explanation is backwards to what should be happening. When the rewind ring is set to rewind, (pushed down and turned clockwise) the sprocket should be free to turn independant from the wind knob/takeup spool. When the rewind ring is turned back, (counterclockwise) and rises to its normal position, the wind mechanism should be resetting such that turning the wind knob will move the sprocket and the takeup spool together in a winding direction. The problem that I had and still have sometimes is that the mechanism does not reset all the way. It is evidenced by the flat spring at the bottom of the shutter crate is not pushing the sprocket shaft all the way up. The flat spring has to be flat against the bottom of the shutter crate, and the small black screw you noted in the slot of the sprocket has to be at the top of the slot. At least on my Z4, when those conditions are met, it will wind and fire as it should. I only have the problem sometimes when removing a roll and loading a new roll, and usually some fiddling with the sprocket shaft and the various knobs will get everything back where it belongs. Probably CLA time but I have been to lazy to pull it apart.

Good luck,
Paul C.

Paul - thanks for the response. Upon further inspection, it seems that things aren't nearly as in "reverse" as my last post. In fact it seems I have the exact same problem as you: the pin at the bottom of the sprocket shaft isn't rising as high as it should in order to connect with the sprocket wheel and turn the shutter. I've tried fiddling, but it isn't getting any better.
Problem is that I took it in to a local shop in Toronto (Kominek) and they'd have to send it out to a Leica tech to fix (to the tune of $250). Ouch. Anyone recommend a cheaper alternative for a CLA/tune-up?

[Apostata]

UPDATE: I think I got it. I took Paul's advise and fiddled with the knobs a bit more. The pin is now sitting higher and catching on the sprocket wheel. However I have a new problem. The shutter speed setting is at "2" and stuck there: I can't lift the "lid" of the shutter speed selector and change to another setting - it won't lift at all.

Anyone found themselves in this situation?

M

[wolves3012]

Originally Posted by Apostata

UPDATE: I think I got it. I took Paul's advise and fiddled with the knobs a bit more. The pin is now sitting higher and catching on the sprocket wheel. However I have a new problem. The shutter speed setting is at "2" and stuck there: I can't lift the "lid" of the shutter speed selector and change to another setting - it won't lift at all.

Anyone found themselves in this situation?

M

I can't think of any reason the shutter dial won't lift, there shouldn't be anything inside to stop it (from memory there's only the flash-synchroniser or the slow-speed mechanism possible). I have a film in my Z4 at the moment so I can't take the top off to peek.

I've had the Z4 almost totally pulled apart a couple of times recently, so I was thinking of doing a "how to" with pictures and posting it. It would cover the main aspects of doing a basic CLA (not pulling the shutter curtains out etc). I'll inlcude the slow-speed mechanism and the wind/rewind & shutter release assemblies. Anyone interested in me doing this? If there's enough interest I'll do it when I've finished my current film...

[ZeMane]

Originally Posted by wolves3012

I can't think of any reason the shutter dial won't lift, there shouldn't be anything inside to stop it (from memory there's only the flash-synchroniser or the slow-speed mechanism possible). I have a film in my Z4 at the moment so I can't take the top off to peek.

I've had the Z4 almost totally pulled apart a couple of times recently, so I was thinking of doing a "how to" with pictures and posting it. It would cover the main aspects of doing a basic CLA (not pulling the shutter curtains out etc). I'll inlcude the slow-speed mechanism and the wind/rewind & shutter release assemblies. Anyone interested in me doing this? If there's enough interest I'll do it when I've finished my current film...

That "Z4 How To" sounds great!!!
I'd like to be able to "look inside" both my Z4 and Z4K, but actually I got a bit scared about the possibility to make something wrong.
That kind of "tutorials" or "how to's" are quite useful for newbies like me. Besides, pictures help quite a lot: sometimes is not easy to understand some terms in english and then one image worths like 1000 words.
I'll keep watching for the "Z4 how to" post, and hope more people are interested too.

Jose

[Apostata]

I'm going to try and take a look (via a mini-screwdriver), but I think I may ship my camera off to Oleg for repair. I've seen in other postings that he sometimes has email issues - I've sent a query to two of his email addresses and both have been returned. Anyone else experience this? Does he still get the emails?

Cheers

[Apostata]

Thank the lord...it's fixed. I'm not sure what the issue was, but I removed the top of the shutter speed dial (which does nothing mechanically, I found, except attach to the shaft which is responsible for setting the shutter speed) using a mini-screwdriver. When I realised that the dial is really just a facade for lifting/setting the shutter speed setting, I replaced it, borrowed a pair of needle-nose pliers (using an elastic band so that I didn't scratch the metal) and hauled on the shutter dial: it worked. It now lifts and resets as it did before.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions/help in this thread. I always feel a bit embarrassed when it turns out that my problem isn't *that* hard to figure out. It didn't help that I've been surrounded by fantastic photographic opportunities w/o a camera to capture them with. Now I can (or attempt to).

[reagan]

Originally Posted by Apostata

I always feel a bit embarrassed when it turns out that my problem isn't *that* hard to figure out.

Ohhh, you're not alone there. I've learned to live with that since childhood. And it happens quite often with my cameras. I count it a blessing, chuckle at myself [again] and celebrate by going out, buying a good coffee and using up some film.

If you haven't come on this before, here's Rick Oleson's page with some Zorki.4 info. -- for future reference.

[wolves3012]

Originally Posted by ZeMane

That "Z4 How To" sounds great!!!
I'd like to be able to "look inside" both my Z4 and Z4K, but actually I got a bit scared about the possibility to make something wrong.
That kind of "tutorials" or "how to's" are quite useful for newbies like me. Besides, pictures help quite a lot: sometimes is not easy to understand some terms in english and then one image worths like 1000 words.
I'll keep watching for the "Z4 how to" post, and hope more people are interested too.

Jose

Keep your eyes peeled then - it's not far off finished, with lots of pics!