Which 50mm lens?

Krosya · 10-11-2006

Hello,

I'm fairly new to the Leica game. Use Bessa R with Summitar coll. lens mostly. Have a few others. But after reading here how many 50mm lenses some people have - I decided to get one or two more as well. Now, the question is - is there any info someone can point me to where it talkes about different signatures/performance of different lenses in 50mm size? Leica alone has a bunch, - Elmar, Summitar, Summar, Summicron, Summilux, Collapsibles and Rigids - and possibly others. Plus Canons, Nikons, etc. So, Any personal comments with examples? Or links on the net? It's all very confusing to me. I'm looking for a sharp lens, with "old" B&W photos feels/signature, Nice bokeh, etc. Hard to explain - but if I see a photo I like - I'd know. So, pls post some examples with caption which lens was used.

Thank you very much.

terrafirmanada · 10-11-2006

Here is a shot from a Summitar at f2: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...41352&cat=5782

I have a DR Summicron, and it is good. Mine is from the last run with different coatings than the others. It renders color the same as my 40mm Cron. The 50 is big and heavy, so it mostly stays at home.

One from the DR:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...46564&cat=5782

Consider the 40mm Cron:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...28670&cat=5782

MadMan2k · 10-11-2006

Canon 50mm 1.8 II, Canon 1N.

I wouldn't recommend it if you're also looking at anything by Leica, just not even in the same universe. Good bargain though, nice and sharp at about f/8, and fast.

Ronald M · 10-11-2006

In a nutshell, older lenses are less contrasty the first few stops and the area of really good resolution is small wide open on older lenses and that area gets bigger with each generation. The reach optimum faster also and the latest ones are just incredably sharp compared to the best of the 1950/60 glass.

triplefinger · 10-11-2006

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...00&ppuser=3228

here's a J-8... lovely and CHEAP

venchka · 10-12-2006

You may be interested in these:

Nikkor 50mm samples

50mm DR Summicron

I own a DR Summicron and I just have one thing to say about it, "I love it!"

Good luck in your search.

sebastel · 10-12-2006

recently i did a bokeh comparison of mainly my 50mm lenses - while i missed my intention a bit due to a quite imperfect setup, it may still give you an idea how old and new lenses compare in a straightforward every day situation.

cheers,
sebastian

edit:
PS: there are several 50mm lenses in the classified section

10-12-2006

Post deleted by posters request

Nick R. · 10-12-2006

I've owned a Modern 50 Elmar, modern Summicron, and older chrome Summilux. The Summilux was good but too heavy so I sold it. I'd like to get another for the extra stop, preferably an ASPH, but they're god-awful expensive.
The Elmar is as sharp as anything out there but only goes to 2.8. You can see mine still for sale in the classifieds (a deal fell through). I'm selling it to finance buying another lens.
The Summicron is the measure of all 50's. It doesn't get any better. Starting with the tabbed Canadian (3rd gen, to me), the optical formula is still the same.
FWIW, I think all the effects people like about older lenses can be replicated more or less in PS but you can't add detail that isn't there. Buy as good as you can afford, imo.

I also own two J-8's -nice, but not in the same league as the others

drewbarb · 10-12-2006

One thing that seems to get lost in this thread is the mount. Can you use an M mount lens, or are you limited to LTM only? You mention the Bessa R, but we don't know if you have an M camera available. If so, you'll have more options. Like many folks, I have tried lots of 50's, but I still use my DR 'cron the most, despite it's weight. I have not tried any of the FSU lenses, but I am eager to find a cheap and tiny one that does a nice job. Do a search here and at photo.net and other like sites and read for a few days, then try out whatever you can get your hands on.

Krosya · 10-12-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewbarb

One thing that seems to get lost in this thread is the mount. Can you use an M mount lens, or are you limited to LTM only? You mention the Bessa R, but we don't know if you have an M camera available. If so, you'll have more options. Like many folks, I have tried lots of 50's, but I still use my DR 'cron the most, despite it's weight. I have not tried any of the FSU lenses, but I am eager to find a cheap and tiny one that does a nice job. Do a search here and at photo.net and other like sites and read for a few days, then try out whatever you can get your hands on.

HI,
First I wanted to thank all that posted their contributions - I have some reading to do now. Keep them coming - everyone's experience is great.
As far as lens mount - I have Bessa R with LTM and I just got me a Leica M3, so I can get Leica lens in M mount - which is mostly why I asked - now that I'm open to more options I want to get a really good Lens.
Thank you

rover · 10-12-2006

Quote:

I just got me a Leica M3, so I can get Leica lens in M mount - which is mostly why I asked - now that I'm open to more options I want to get a really good Lens.

Oh, in that case, Rigid Summicron, same vintage as your M3. It was made for the camera.

Krosya · 10-12-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by rover

Oh, in that case, Rigid Summicron, same vintage as your M3. It was made for the camera.

Hi,
Ok, but how do I define which one is the right one? I mean right vintage? What do I look for? Serial number, or it has distinct characteristics I can spot?As I said before - I'm new to Leica, so - if my question is stupid - forgive me, pls.

matt fury · 10-12-2006

I'll put my 50mm Hexanon up against any Summicron of the past. I'm sure it will compare favorably, and it's only ~$300 used.

edit: hexanon, not hexar..i always do that!

FrankS · 10-12-2006

Krosya, there really is no such thing as "the right one" that anyone can choose for you. What you are asking about is not an exact science, it is completely subjective. There is no such thing as a (single) right 50 lens for everyone.

Krosya · 10-12-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankS

Krosya, there really is no such thing as "the right one" that anyone can choose for you. What you are asking about is not an exact science, it is completely subjective. There is no such thing as a (single) right 50 lens for everyone.

I think I was not clear before - what I was asking is what's the same vintage as M3 for a 50mm summicron? How do I distinguish it from older/newer ones?
BTW, Is dual range Summicron better?
Thanks

JohnM · 10-12-2006

I have the Dual Range Summicron and it is wonderful - better than the normal Rigid Summicron? Some say yes, some say no...I can't say I've noticed any difference.

My DR Cron was manufactured in 1956 - the serial number is 14665xx. That's basically the vintage of the M3. (My M3, serial No. 918xxx, was manufactured in 1958.) If you're looking for a vintage lens, that would be the ball park of the serial numbers you're looking at.

No real reason to confine yourself to that vintage, though. Someone mentioned the current Summicron which is my favorite lens - someone else mentions the Konica Hexar 50/2 M-mount lens which is a great alternative to the current Cron at half the price.

You really have a ton of options - there's little risk to buying a lens and giving it a try. The market value of the lenses tends to remain level and you can usually sell it for what you paid for it.

Flyfisher Tom · 10-12-2006

The original Rigid summicron is a contemporary of the DR Summicron, and both would be contemporaries of your M3.

I think what you are asking for is a general treatise on the various lenses. www.cameraquest.com look under classic camera profiles, and then under either M lenses or leica screwmount lenses profiles. It gives just about every possibility under the sun.

All of the above are stellar: any version of the 50/summicron (collapsible, rigid/DR, 4th tabbed, 5th hooded), any version of the 50 summilux, 50 hexanon-m, 50/1.2/1.4/1.5/1.8 Canon LTMs, Voigtlander 50/1.5. Your possibilities are literally endless. I think that is why so many of us end up with so many 50s

10-13-2006

Post deleted by posters request

markinlondon · 10-13-2006

http://www.kbcamera.com/summicron50m.htm details the generations of 50 'crons. I have the current model and it is breathtaking even though I find the pull-out hood fiddly.

Mark

rover · 10-13-2006

OK, a couple thoughts from CT

Frank is right, all 50 Summicrons are excellent, as is the 50 Hex pointed out by Matt.

The Rigid 50 Summicron though is the specific target of the moment, so first stop, the book of Gandy....

"50/2 Summicron Many variations, so it can get confusing. Many consider the 50 Summicron best of all 50 mm lenses, by any manufacturer. It's the standard that other 50's are judged by.

First version 1954-1957 Collapsible chrome. A good lens, but not as good as the later lenses. EXTREMELY likely to be found with lens scratches. It has a VERY soft front coating. Likely to be encountered fogged from original owner, see Fogging. Not collapsible on M5 or CL due to meter constrictions. 7 elements, focused to 40"
Second version 1956-68 Rigid chrome, although a few were made in black by special order. Aesthetically a very handsome lens, sought after by shooters and collectors. This lens was tested to have the highest resolution (at the expense of some contrast) of any 50 Summicron several years ago by a Japanese photography magazine. Again, very prone to front lens scratches. For many years thought to be the same optical formula as the collapsible, recently it has been confirmed to be slightly different. Likely to be encountered fogged from original owner, see Fogging. 7 elements, focused to 40"
Third version 1956-1968 Dual Range Summicron, chrome. This is a special close focusing version of # 2 above. The 50/2 Duel Range Summicron had the highest tested resolution of any lens ever tested by the great and sadly departed American photography magazine, Modern Photography. It has the closest RF coupled focusing of any M lens. 7 elements. Most "experts" say the optical formula is the same as the rigid, but many experienced DR users claim they get different results and so believe they must be different formulas. With a flat platform for the "eyes" on the top of it's focusing barrel, the DR is not as pleasing aesthetically as the rigid. Nevertheless, the DR is very sought after by shooters. Again, very prone to front lens scratches and also fogging if bought from the original owner, see Fogging. for Pics
The 50/2 DR will probably work fine on the M6, but you must remember to mount and dismount the lens focused at infinity. When focused near it's closest regular focusing distance, the lens will be difficult to mount OR unmount. I have reports of the DR not functioning in close up range on a M6. I am frankly unsure if these reports are due to variations with the bodies and the DR, or are the result of user error. More research will till. It seems prudent to try a DR on your M6 before you buy it.

Howard Cummer in Hong Kong reports difficulty using a 2nd series DR in close-up range on a M6 .85 # 2296539. While he could mount the lens, if it was not focused at it's closest regular focusing distance, the close up range was inoperative due to some sort of internal body restrictions. Whether this is true of all late M6's in general, or of just the .85 model is not clear at this time. In any case, it's a good idea to try it out to be sure on your own body/lens combination.

The 50/2 DR will NOT work on a Minolta CLE in my experience. Although the lens will mount, it will bind with the body just slightly from the infinity marking.

The DR lens has two focusing ranges, thus the brilliant name "Dual Range." The DR can ONLY be mounted on the camera without it's "eyes." The "eyes" are a detachable viewfinder which clips onto the top of the lens and in front of the camera's rangefinder/viewfinder. They look pretty much like the viewer built into the 135/2.8 or the M3 versions of the 35/2 and 2.8. Once mounted, the closer focusing range is attained by turning the lens to it's closest normal focusing point. Then attach the "eyes" which clip onto the lens. ONLY at this focus point can the eyes be attached and the closest focusing range attained. THEN pull the focusing barrel out slightly, and the lens barrel can be swung over farther to the left, to get into the close focusing range. It sounds more complicated than it really is in practice.

It is worth noting that many experienced used find the DR Summicron not only their favorite 50, but their favorite lens, period. It has a combination of higher resolution and lower contrast and superb out of focus images.

The Earlier version of the DR focuses to 19" and is marked in either feet or meters, but not both. It is also marked in reproduction rations from 1:15 to 1:.75. The "eyes" for these have the "condenser" trademark, inside of which is "E.
Leitz Wetzlar."

The Later version of the DR focuses to 20" and is marked in BOTH feet and meters, without the repro ratios. The "eyes" for this version are marked "Leitz Wetzlar" without the condenser trademark. The second version also has wider and deeper knurling on the focusing ring than the previous version. I have noticed a "warmer" color of lens coating on these later DR's, but am not sure if it extends to ALL of this variety. The lens head and glass appears to be identical to the earlier version and to the rigid version, at least from the outside. The second version also has a smaller ball bearing mount for the eyes, which means the later eyes will not fit the earlier lenses, though the older eyes will fit the later lenses.

Fourth version 1969-1979 Black lens with no "50" on barrel, No focusing lock or lever. Generally reputed to be a notch below either of the Summicron versions before or after it. 6 elements. This and later versions focused to 28, the closest focusing RF coupled 50 after the DR."
Fifth version 1980-95 Black lens with "50" on barrel, reintroduced focusing lever, without built in hood. In my opinion this is a better choice in terms of handling than the built in hood version which followed it. I am a fan of both the focusing lever and the larger attachable hood. Nice lightweight lens at only 195 grams 6 elements, recomputed. Earlier lenses are Made in Canada, later Made in Germany.
Sixth version 1995-date Black or chrome lens with "50" on barrel and built in hood. No focusing lever. Same optical design as previous version. Weighs more at 240 grams in black. The chrome version weighs much more at 333 grams, so I would avoid it. Same optical formula as previous version.
In December 2001, Leica announced 500 50/2 Titanium lenses would be made to match their newly introduced limited edition .72 M6 TTL Titanium body."

Now, I think Stephens warnings about coating damage and haze need to be kept in mind when shopping, but there are lots of very good Rigid Summicrons out there, and I paid less than $300 for mine and it is crystal clear.

Now to the late great KB Camera site. The web site is partially down, but if you poke around.....

http://www.kbcamera.com/summicron50m.htm

That is a great page.

Now, there are many many great 50mm lenses out there. But for the M3, in my eyes it doesn't get better than a Rigid Summicron.

rover · 10-13-2006

Quote:

I have the Dual Range Summicron and it is wonderful - better than the normal Rigid Summicron? Some say yes, some say no...I can't say I've noticed any difference.

I had both, they are very very similar in image quality, if there was a difference it was due to the individual samples I owned and not the optical formula. I sold the DR as I thought the Rigid was easier to use. The DR is perhaps the best built lens in the history of photography though, it is a tank.

Nick R. · 10-13-2006

Try not to get confused about version numbers with the summicrons. What Rover and Gandy call the fifth version others call the third version. That's why I refer to attributes like "tabbed Canadian" to describe them. In General any serial number from the tabbed Canadian on will have the same optical formula.

Justin Low · 10-13-2006

I really like my Elmar-M (current). Makes beautiful pictures, even at night, despite it's 'lack' of speed.

It's relatively inexpensive too, for a current M lens.

Andrew3511 · 10-13-2006

Re rigid and dual range Summicrons, these are the same optical formula. If you unscrew the lens unit from the mount there is a little figure etched on the lens unit with a code for measured focal length. The selection of lens units for the DR was to a higher tolerance than the rigid because of the need for more accuracy at the closer distances so the rigid may have a focal length up to 51.5mm and the units closest to 50mm went in the DR.