Opinions? User Leica or New(er) RF

[MCTuomey]

Apologies for repeating a question that comes up in a lot of threads, but it's on my mind lately and I've read through a number of searches ... yes, it's probably onanistic, I know.

Let's say you want to gain the benefit of Leica and/or VC lenses specifically, so you need an RF body. You can't spend $1,000+++ for one, but you might spend up to, say, $500-750. You've got a preference for mechanical, for simplicity, but metering and other features are okay, too. In other words, no obsessions worth noting.

What would you do? Buy a user Leica body for $750? Buy a Bessa R/R2/R3? Buy a Hexar RF? Buy all Leica lenses? Buy a mix of VC and Leica? Buy all VC? Not buy anything and spend the money on a trip to Tuscany?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[pshinkaw]

Buy a Kiev-4a, have it CLA'd AND go to Tuscany.

-Paul

[Honu-Hugger]

Buy a Contax IIa, have it CLA'd AND go to Tuscany.

D2

[Brian Sweeney]

I HAVE TO SAY THIS!!!

AND NO APOLOGIES FOR REPEATED ANSWERS!!!

Get a USER M3 or M2 if you have to have the 35mm lines.

A mix of lenses is fine, but do not overlook some of the older Leica Glass that is a Bargain price. My 90mm F4 M-Mount Elmar gives great results, and can be had for $100. Mine is a user cosmetically, but has perfect glass. I was weighing selling it after picking up the tele-elmarit... But... It's so hard!

[pshinkaw]

Brian:

Don't you think he should go to Tuscany too?

I hoped we would all agree on that.

-Paul

[SolaresLarrave]

Get a Canonet and go to Tuscany and Paris (one can tell you know the lingo already)...

[SolaresLarrave]

Mike,

Jokes aside... budget permitting, Brian's advice is pretty sound: any user M2 and M3 will give you years of ininterrupted and loyal service; besides, relatively old Leica glass is easy to find and finance. Now, if you need a meter, there are more choices: a Bessa comes to mind first, and then a Konica Hexar (should you be lucky enough to find one) or a Leica M6 or M6TTL. Of course, the glass is the important part: either Leica, Konica or Voigtlander will turn out to be right for you... and for your budget.

Have fun shopping!

[peter_n]

I would get a Bessa R - $249 from Stephen Gandy - spend the leftover $500 on a trip to Tuscany.

[Roberto]

Originally posted by peter_n
I would get a Bessa R - $249 from Stephen Gandy - spend the leftover $500 on a trip to Tuscany.

Sorry guys.. but WHY Tuscany?
Liguria is sooo much better...

Rob.

[back alley]

buy any or all of the above, you can't go wrong.

if you want more modern or a good built in meter go for the bessa r.
a nice leica m2 or m3 is a classic way to go. and classic is always in vogue.

but if you want quality and to be just a touch different, get a canon p.

joe

[Huck Finn]

Mike, we've all been there, so it's not what WOULD we do; it's what we did. Faced with a similar choice, I passed on an $800 M4-P in user condition and a new Hexar RF. I wanted somthing new, out-of-the-box, never-been-used-before, warranteed - and the record of the Hexar with Leica lenses was too spotty for me. I didn't want a Leica body that I'd be pouring more money into - i.e. CLA, add a light meter, etc. - one that could be tied up for months when & if service were needed. So, I bought a Bessa series camera & have a mix of Rollei, Leica, & CV lenses.

The question is: what will you do? People that take all of the options you have posed, so there's no best answer. It's a personal choice. If the lure of the Leica sings to you, then you go that route & take the one that fits your budget. Other than a Leica CL, I think that you'll have to look hard to get a Leica in your price range that is in good condition on which you don't have to spend more money, but you may be resourceful , , , or lucky. I'm not saying it can't be done, but . . . If I were buying a Hexar RF, I'd stick with Konica's excellent lenses.

Don't overlook the option of buying an R2 used to see how you like it. If you don't, you haven't committed a lot of money & you can prbably turn around & sell for about the same as what you paid for it if you're ebay savvy. You'll have a fine camera with a lot of money left for lenses - which are what really take the picture after all.

Re lenses, you have to look around & see what "look" you become a fan of. If you don't already have a defined preference, it's hard to go wrong with Voigtlander lenses. You can always re-sell them & replace them if you find something you prefer.

God luck!
Huck

[ddimaria]

Take your money, go to Naples, I know I guy there that can get you a camera REAL cheap.

I think if your'e willing to spend $500 on the R2 why not find a user M6 non ttl?

[Brian Sweeney]

It is true that my M2 was tied up for 8 weeks waiting on Parts from Germany; but the Ebay seller listed the rewind problem up-front so I knew what I was getting into. At $430 for an EX toEX+ body, one ding, and perfect finder... not bad. Total repair cost was $194 including two-way postage.

The M3 that I got here on RFF with the shutter capping problem was back to my door via UPS in 16 days, the total CLA cost including priority-mail up to Essex in NJ and UPS return was $165.

It would be Nice to take any of the first-class cameras mentioned here to Tuscany! I do want to add a Canon P to the collection, just for the record. I have an L1, just got the test roll back and the results were 1st rate. The M3 finder is better, the shutter is quieter. But the L1 cost about $200. It could use a CLA to clear dirt out of the finder, but is very usable. I prefer the Canon 7 with its projected frame-lines and Selenium meter that has always done right by me.

I also got the results back from my Konica S2 that I bought from Rob for under $25. If you GOTTA go to Tuscany and gonna blow all your money on the Trip: BUY A KONICA S2! Results were very good wide-open, meter was dead on, and the viewfinder is bright and clear. The RF spot is bright, and best of all: The framelines change size as you change focus to give you the true field-of-view!!! I cleaned some grime out from under the shutter ring with some isopropyl alchohol to free it up, but that was all that needed to be fixed.

[GeneW]

I like Huck's answer. A nice modern cam like the Bessa R2 is easy to load, has very good metering, the framelines are bright and CV lenses are very good. After you have some experience with it you can decide whether or not to go for Leica glass and bodies.

Gene

[iMacfan]

It all depends on whether the priority is for the results or how you get them. Having just bought a 50yr old user Leica IIc (for what, I don't know - eBay is an evil place), I really can appreciate how sturdy and even 'beautiful' they can be. However, the fact remains that especially for the body, newer will give you far less headaches.

This is what I have done, and why, so that you can decide if the rationale makes any sense:

1. Bessa R3a - I know that there are no mechanical backup speeds, but it does have AE, and is the sturdiest of the Bessa line.

2. User Summicron - I've just bought off eBay a user 50/f2 from the 70's, for a price similar to a new VC Nokton 50 or 40. It appears that while the new Leica lenses are superb, many prefer the look of the previous versions. I'll just have to wait and see - crossing my fingers that it arrives OK.

A final point - it seems like mixing russian and other Leica gear (incl VC and Canon) is not such a good idea. The lens mounts are slightly different, so you may get focusing problems at wider apetures and closer up.

David

[MCTuomey]

What I know for sure: this forum is delightful. I appreciate all the varied responses. What fine rangefinder frenzy abounds here!

Whether I get to Tuscany (or Sicilia, or Liguria, or Napoli), whether I have the funds to get a Leica M4-2 (or M2, or Bessa R/2/3, or Canon P), I do have my Canonet GIII 17 whatever might happen. And soon David's Hi-Matic, too, so one or the other is near at all times and places. So don't think I'm RF-less at this moment. I need to shoot and shoot. Skill acquisition and more experience will be my proper concern. Discernment to follow ...

[Brian Sweeney]

I have had a Hi-Matic since 1969; It is a great performer. The lens -45mm F1.7- is first rate. I looked at some Kodachromes taken ~1970, and it is as good now as it was then.

[Todd.Hanz]

I would find a camera store and handle all the cameras your interested in, see what feels good to you. Look through the finder, get an idea of what works and what feels like a brick in your hands, then make a decision.
If you don't like it then sell it here, somebody will buy it!
If you like Leica, please buy an M3 and help Brian acheive his goal of an M3 in everyones pot...err..hand!

Todd

[Huck Finn]

Originally posted by MCTuomey
I need to shoot and shoot. Discernment to follow ...

McT, I like your comment to your own question best of all. I think that you should go out & try to make fine art with your Canonet. When you run into an obstacle & say: "I can't get the results I want because . . .", then you'll know what to buy.

That Canonet is a great little camera - "the poor man's Leica." Best to master one instrument at a time.

[Huck Finn]

Originally posted by Brian Sweeney
It is true that my M2 was tied up for 8 weeks waiting on Parts from Germany; but the Ebay seller listed the rewind problem up-front so I knew what I was getting into. At $430 for an EX toEX+ body, one ding, and perfect finder... not bad. Total repair cost was $194 including two-way postage.

The M3 that I got here on RFF with the shutter capping problem was back to my door via UPS in 16 days, the total CLA cost including priority-mail up to Essex in NJ and UPS return was $165.

It would be Nice to take any of the first-class cameras mentioned here to Tuscany! I do want to add a Canon P to the collection, just for the record. I have an L1, just got the test roll back and the results were 1st rate. The M3 finder is better, the shutter is quieter. But the L1 cost about $200. It could use a CLA to clear dirt out of the finder, but is very usable. I prefer the Canon 7 with its projected frame-lines and Selenium meter that has always done right by me.

I also got the results back from my Konica S2 that I bought from Rob for under $25. If you GOTTA go to Tuscany and gonna blow all your money on the Trip: BUY A KONICA S2! Results were very good wide-open, meter was dead on, and the viewfinder is bright and clear. The RF spot is bright, and best of all: The framelines change size as you change focus to give you the true field-of-view!!! I cleaned some grime out from under the shutter ring with some isopropyl alchohol to free it up, but that was all that needed to be fixed.

Brian, I certainly didn't have you in mind when I talked about Leicas in the shop for months. I was actually thinking of sme guys on photo.net whose cameras were in for routine repairs. There are just so few people to repair these cameras.

I actually did have you in mind when I talked about resourcefulness. I admire you & some others on this board who can find gold in the garbage. I'm in awe.

some of us are not so blessed with your talents.

Cheers

[Brian Sweeney]

Huck and all: I wanted to back up that buying cameras that need repair can be exactly as Huck stated! I consider it "conservation of inconvenience" to get a great price. If you are willing to take some risk and put some faith into the camera repair shops, there are ways to get these cameras relatively cheap. Neither I nor Essex thought the M2 would take two months to get repaired, but "stuff happens". If you are on a budget, it can be worth it. If you are making your living by it, different story. Most of the time things go smoothly, and standard repairs turn over quickly. BUT some cameras can be a can of worms; I have found that either handling the camera personally or buying from an honest seller like JDOS2 that lists all known problems or the EBay'r that sold the M2 listing it with a broken rewind at least lets you go in eyes open.

I have had some Ebay "burns" like a Polaroid 680 that required a new circuit board listed as Mint and another SLR listed as "I see no reason why this camera will not work perfectly" that had been in a fire and was melted internally.

[RML]

Ohoh! Another potential addict!

Cameraquest has a really sweet deal on the Bessa R + 35/2.5 C in silver for only $399! There's no way you can beat that: a very fine, brand new camera with a very good, brand new lens.

After using it for a while you might want a 50mm lens. The J-8 could very well be your choice. For less than $40 you'll get a lens that'll give you smooth OOF areas and wonderful bokeh. And it's pretty fast at f2, too. iMacFan has had a bit of trouble wit his J-8, and you should be aware of his tale, but most of us have never experienced any focusing problems.

Than, after using the Bessa and lenses for a while, you'll start thinking about them Russian cameras and Leicas. The FEDs and Zorki's are usually good cameras but have their own quirky habits, which you might or might not like (but you can try out a few at those low prices). The Kievs are another breed alltogether, and will take you away from LTM and M mount cameras (not necessarily a bad thing, though your wallet might complain a bit about the extra spending). The Leicas have their own, powerful, reputation. An M3 or M2 is probably what you'll start looking for but Leica III(f?), CL or M6 might tickle your fancy as well.

IMO it's best to start out with affordable and new, meaning the Bessa deal. You'll have plenty of opportunity later to spend loads and loads of money on anything else you might like, need or want.

[peter_n]

Originally posted by Huck Finn
Mike, we've all been there, so it's not what WOULD we do; it's what we did.

In my case I'm advising something different from what I did. My first RF was a Leica, but this Bessa R at $249 is just too good to pass up. You could buy an excellent 35mm Summicron to go on the front of it and you would have a fantastic camera!

[MCTuomey]

Oscar Wilde: "I can resist anything but temptation." Ditto.

Considering all the good advice and contemplating my (lack of) resources, I ordered a Bessa R. I'll shoot my Canonet while I amass funds for glass (was out this morning trying unsuccessfully for access to a steel mill for industry-in-winter pictures). I think this means I've shelved my SLR improvement plans. From confusion ... direction.

[Tim]

Congrats Mike, did you get the body + 35/2.5 deal? That really is a great camera. Add the CV 75/2.5 to it and you have a great compact kit. I shouldn't have sold mine.........

But beware - you are now on the slippery slope that leads to a Leica!



tim