Use of HCA and Photo-flo

[jamiewakeham]

Hi all

So my first few baches of negs didn't come out too well, with a kind of grey-ish scum all over them. More reading leads me to believe that this was because I'm using the Ilford wash (5, 10, 20 inversions, changing water each time) but NOT using Hypo Clearing Agent.

So I've got myself a packet of Kodak's HCA powder. It wants me to mix up at 27 degrees - is this critical? I'll have to let it cool to the 20 degrees I do all my processing at, I suppose.

Also, I've got some Photo-flo, which wants me to work at a dilution of 600:1. For purposes of making up enough for a 35mm film (ie about 300ml) is just saying 'a drop' ok, or do I actually need to mix up enough to be sure I'm accurately using 600:1? I suppose I could measure one millilitre accurately, if I borrow a syringe, so I'd only need to make up two films' worth at a time.

Have also stolen several litres of distilled water from work, to try to eliminate impurities. I plan to use this for all stages, from dev to wash.

Any other ideas?

Thanks
Jamie

[tetrisattack]

Grayish or yellowish or milky scum could be evidence of inadequate fixing or spent fixer. If it were inadequate washing, you'd probably notice smelly negatives or that your negatives seem to have retained more dye than usual.

But to answer your questions...

The temperature is not critical, but kodak suggests you elevate the temperature to increase solubility. Obviously, that whole packet can be dissolved in room-temperature water (or else you'd have crystals precipitating out of your solutions overnight!) but it will cut down on stirring time.

Kodak's instructions usually tell you to dissolve the packet in the first 800ml of water, topping off to 950ml, but you could probably get away with dissolving the packet in 700ml of water, then topping off with very cold water. That might get you closer to processing temp. Or, you could just mix it the night before.

As for the photo flo... accuracy isn't critical, but it's quite possible to have too much, and you'll know because you'll have runny deposits of photo-flo on your negatives instead of the water spots you were trying to avoid! 1:600 is pretty hard to manage, so if you wanted to be scientific about the whole thing, you could mix up an intermediate solution of 1:100 or 1:50 or so, diluting that further for your final rinse.

[Nachkebia]

Conor I am your fan! Thank you! pricless information!

[markinlondon]

A milky appearance to your negs could be bad fixing as Conor says but could also just be crummy water. It depends on the degree of milkiness, have you tried refixing? My negs were horrible this summer (sort of clear but dull) due to drying too fast with a final rinse in Eau de Londres and all needed rewashing in photoflo made up in deionised water. I hadn't need the stuff up to this point. Distilled water for all process solutions sounds like overkill. What developer are you using?

I've never used HCA as I don't find it necessary for film or RC paper, the fixer takeup just isn't that great. The Ilford wash process was tested by Ilford for residual fixer and I haven't seen any loss of image silver as long as I've been using it.

Mark

[jamiewakeham]

Thanks, Conor.

Pretty sure my fixing is ok; I've been doing tests on the end of the film to evaluate clearing time for every film, and usually mixing up fresh fix.

I'm planing to mix the HCA up as I need it, as I don't have the space to store lots of solution. I could easily put some of the distilled water in the fridge, of course, to bring the temp back dow as you suggest. It won't be critical; as long as it's somewhere near 20 degrees I expect everything to be fine!

I will try your suggestion of making up a stock solution of photo-flo at 1:50 and diluting to working solution. Good idea.

Will report back in the morning.

Cheers
Jamie

Edit - just seen Mark's post above me. I'm using DD-X; I plan to master this one developer before I try any others! It's a fairly even layer on the negs of a grey-ish scum; picks up fingerprints horribly. Should I simply try re-washing them, using Photo-Flo, or should I actually refix?

I've seen one place (Nova, IIRC) who suggest that you should use HCA if you plan to use the Ilford wash, implying that you need to go for the whole 'lots of running water' if you don't employ HCA. Although this could just be a ploy to sell more HCA...

[markinlondon]

I think the big question is "is the scum milky?" If it's opaque it's unfixed silver salts and points to inadequate fixing. It won't hurt to dunk them in fresh fixer for a while and rewash. If this clears it you will either need to fix longer or agitate more during your fixer bath. I have one more question, do you use an acid stop bath or water?

Oh, and I should have read your userid before asking about the dev, shouldn't I?


Mark

[kaiyen]

If the scum isn't milky, then it might be your water supply, not your fixer. You don't need HCA with the Ilford method, unless you are using a fixer that actualoly has hypo in it (not all fixers do). I had abnormally hard water in my previous place and it caused a residue on the edge of the film while drying.

allan

[phototone]

Here is how to get "spot" free negatives. I have been doing this for 30 years. Use Photo-flo for the final soak before hanging up. Hang up the film. Now, take a couple of very soft sponges, get them totally saturated with water to get maximum softness from them. Wring them out, then put them in the remaining Photo-flo you soaked the film in. Let them soak up the Photo-flo, wring them out fully, then put them on either side of the film, an using very light pressure wipe down the film, starting at the top, in one smooth movement wipe to the bottom of the film. (squeege) There, you have removed all the excess liquid from the film. It will dry spot-free, and dust free if you have a dust free environment. Discard your Photo-flo soak. You should mix up a new batch for each film processing run.

[jamiewakeham]

Mark - using Kodak Max-Stop as per bottle instructions.

Allan - using Ilford Rapid Fix. I'm reasonably sure I'm fixing adequately (twice the clearing time, tested on every single film - I never assume I can replicate past fixing tests) so I think it must be my water. The scum is, on closer inspection last night, pretty transparent until you touch the neg, at which point it becomes very prominent indeed. I figure that, have essentially an infinite supply of distilled water, I may as well use it for all stages; can't do any harm! At least it will also allow me to know that if there's still a problem, it MUST be my fixing.

Work overtook me last night, and is likely to again tonight. I will dev some films soon and report back, I promise! Thanks for all the help.

Jamie

[Trius]

I agree that water quality needs to be considered. I use water from my dehumidifer, then filter it through a paper cone filter (Melita type coffee filter), then through a Brita.

As for Photo Flo, I mix it 1:400, not 1:200. With this method, I don't need to wipe the negs with any sponges, etc. Phototone has good success with the sponges, but I'm paranoid about some little piece of grit in the sponge producing a scratch.

[jamiewakeham]

Trius,

I, too, am a bit nervous about the sponge. I've wrecked one film with a squeegee that had a bit of grit in it; I assumed that soaking the squeegee would have removed all the dust, but no...

You recommend upping the concentration of the Photo-flo that far? My bottle says working strength is 1:600, IIRC.

Jamie

[Finder]

Not able to see your scum, it could be photo-flo contamination on your reels and tanks if you leave you film on the reels during the photo-flo step. Don't put your developing equipment in photo-flo or you can get dichronic fog (scum). If it is dichroic fog, rewash the negs in Farmer's reducer. That should clean them up nicely.

[jamiewakeham]

I've never used Photo-flo yet: this will be my first time trying it.

But yes, it's a good point. I plan to use an old dev tray to 'dunk' my negs in the Photo-flo, so keep my reels and tank free of contamination.

Jamie

[back alley]

i use a dropper and put one drop of photo flo into the dev. tank, then soak the negs on the reels.

[Trius]

Do you use plastic or stainless steel tanks and reels? Stainless can rinse clean in very hot out of the tap, or you could boil some water to clean the tanks and reels.

The Photo Flo I have is 1:200, so I am diluting 2x the recommendation. I've never seen Photo Flo bottled with instructions for a 1:600 dilution, but maybe there are alternate bottlings I haven't seen.

I have seen quite a few posts by others also stating that the standard dilution for Photo-Flow isn't the optimum. Being in Rochester and using the same municipal water supply as Kodak, I can't explain the difference. But of course I don't know that Kodak has used straight Monroe county tap water to arrive at their dilution recommendation. I don't even know that Photo-Flo is produced here or is tested here. All I know is what works for me.

Edwal LFN is another option. But again, I am using water that has been largely deionized, so YMMV.

[Dougg]

I do the same as Joe, then after the negs have been hung, I wash the stainless tanks and reels in hot water. Never (um, in 40 years) have had any Photo-Flo contamination issues. Maybe that could be more a problem with plastic tanks? Did use one of those at first, don't recall its fate...

As to the amount of Photo-Flo, I use the cap to dispense a few drops to put in the final wash to soak. As I hang each roll in the shower, I pour the tank contents down the length of film and then use the squeegee.

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by jamiewakeham

Hi all


Have also stolen several litres of distilled water from work, to try to eliminate impurities. I plan to use this for all stages, from dev to wash.

Any other ideas?

Thanks
Jamie

Ya, I have an idea. Stop stealing. If your mother didn't tell you, its immoral.