which 85mm for my Contax? Sonnar or Nikkor?

athans · 01-04-2005

Hello, I would like to get an 85mm lens for my Contax IIa, and I was wondering if any of you have any comments regarding the Sonnar vs. the Nikkor 85mm. My impression is that they cost
about the same although it's a bit harder to find the C- version of the Nikkor.

Thanks
Thanasis

RObert Budding · 01-05-2005

I hope you are patient. I've had Henry Scherer watching for an 85mm Sonnar for about 6 months, and nothing yet. But he is very picky, and he refuses to overpay. So I'll just enjoy my other lenses, for now.

I don't have any experience with the Nikon.

Robert

Brian Sweeney · 01-05-2005

I have the Nikon, but not the Sonnar. Both are legendary, perform with the best of modern optics, and you can't go wrong with either. The Nikkor 8.5cm F2 was the best lens in Nikon's starting line-up.

BUT: You have a Contax IIa and that Sonnar would look really good on it. I would go for a coated post-war version.

Taken with the Nikkor 8.5cm f2 Wide-Open (LTM Version)

Same Lens, Also Wide-Open

wlewisiii · 01-05-2005

Given the lack of them available right now and the cost when they do show up, have you given any consideration to getting a Jupiter-9 to use in the meantime? Getting one from one of the various reputable dealers (I prefer fedka.com but there are several others) will cost more than some Bay sellers, but a good one is a very nice lens indeed.

William

Huck Finn · 01-05-2005

Which Nikkor? I don't have either, but the Nikkor has the reputation for being the sharper of the two wide open, not as good in the mid ranges. Depends what look you like. Some prefer the softer look of the Zeiss wide open. As you know, both are Sonnar designs. Interesting history. It has been said that the Zeiss designs were stolen by the Americans at the end of WWII & given to the Japanese to pump up their economy. Zeiss sued & won. It took 15 years to work it out in the courts. In the end, photographers of the '50s won as more copies got in the act & tweaked the Sonnar design (Canon, Russians, etc.)

furcafe · 01-05-2005

I have the Nikkor-P in LTM, as well as 3 versions of the Sonnar: Carl Zeiss Jena ("CZJ") pre-WWII, CZJ post-WWII, & Zeiss-Opton ("Z-O"). If you're talking about the Nikkor-P v. post-WWII Zeiss Sonnars, I would say that they all produce the same look as they're all Sonnars. IMHO, they're all great performers. FWIW, I disagree w/those who say that the Nikkor "Sonnars," whether 50mm or 85mm, are any more suited for wide-open, close up shooting than their Zeiss relatives. I've read that there are differences between the optical design of the post-WWII E. German CZJ Sonnars & their W. German Z-O & Carl Zeiss (no Jena) brethren, but can't see any difference in my slides & negatives.

IMHO, the Nikkor-P is the best built of the post-WWII bunch, as it has the heavy tank-like construction of a pre-WWII Sonnar combined w/post-WWII coated optics. The E. German CZJ Sonnar has nice optics, but they're mounted in lightweight, merely adequate, WWII-style, alloy barrels. The W. German Z-O & CZ Sonnars have nice optics that are mounted in nice chrome barrels, only not as heavy duty as their pre-WWII ancestors (& small differences in configuration as well).

Quote:

Originally posted by athans
Hello, I would like to get an 85mm lens for my Contax IIa, and I was wondering if any of you have any comments regarding the Sonnar vs. the Nikkor 85mm. My impression is that they cost
about the same although it's a bit harder to find the C- version of the Nikkor.

Thanks
Thanasis

David Kieltyka · 01-07-2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Huck Finn
It has been said that the Zeiss designs were stolen by the Americans at the end of WWII & given to the Japanese to pump up their economy. Zeiss sued & won. It took 15 years to work it out in the courts. In the end, photographers of the '50s won as more copies got in the act & tweaked the Sonnar design (Canon, Russians, etc.)

The Zeiss lens designs weren't stolen per se. They were turned over to or confiscated by the Allies as part of war reparations. From there the designs made their way to Japan as you state. The lawsuit you refer to wasn't against any Japanese company but rather E. German Zeiss. W. German Zeiss claimed it was the true inheritor of the Zeiss name. After W. German Zeiss prevailed in the western courts E. German Zeiss could no longer use the Zeiss name on products exported outside the Soviet Bloc. Thus you'll find later made-for-export lenses branded "CZJ" or "Aus Jena" rather than "Carl Zeiss Jena."

-Dave-

David Kieltyka · 01-07-2005

I just remembered I have a pic on my hard drive showing three different 85mm Sonnars. A bit of lens porn.

On the left is the uncoated pre-WWII version. Beautifully made, heavy chrome plating, weighs a ton. In the center is a wartime version in LTM. This one is coated (a very early coated lens in fact) and is rare too. Aluminium alloy barrel, much lighter than the first version. On the right is the post-war Zeiss-Opton version. Nicely made, not as heavy as the pre-war lens. After W. German Zeiss won their lawsuit against the E. German company they switched the brand from Zeiss-Opton to the familiar Carl Zeiss.

The three lenses are equally first-class optically. The uncoated Sonnar is quite flare-resistant for a lens of its time. I sold a 1980s vintage 90mm Summicron after getting the LTM Sonnar and falling in love with its optical character. This led to an interest in Contax RF cameras and eventually to the other two lenses in the photo.

-Dave-

Huck Finn · 01-08-2005

Quote:

Originally posted by David Kieltyka
The Zeiss lens designs weren't stolen per se. They were turned over to or confiscated by the Allies as part of war reparations. From there the designs made their way to Japan as you state. The lawsuit you refer to wasn't against any Japanese company but rather E. German Zeiss. W. German Zeiss claimed it was the true inheritor of the Zeiss name. After W. German Zeiss prevailed in the western courts E. German Zeiss could no longer use the Zeiss name on products exported outside the Soviet Bloc. Thus you'll find later made-for-export lenses branded "CZJ" or "Aus Jena" rather than "Carl Zeiss Jena."

-Dave-

"To the victor belong the spoils."

The following may be off topic for this thread, but I want to clear the record.

David, I was absolutely NOT referring to the lawsuit in the German courts between Zeiss East & West. Carl Zeiss, USA sued Yashica in US courts in the 1950s for patent infringement & won.

The designs "made their way" to Japan? What does this mean? Both Canon & Nikon simply took (stole) the Leica shutter, for example, for their own use. Nikon adopted (stole) the Zeiss Ikon Contax shutter & rangefinder, and Canon did the same for the Leica thread-mount design. Both companies simply took (stole) patented Zeiss lens designs and produced them as their own! The Japanese did this with full knowledge of the Allied Control Commission, which turned a deaf ear to protests from the German companies.

These patent rights had NOT been seized as "war booty" by the Allies, i.e. the Allies seized the intellectual property rights of all enemy companies on the outbreak of the war, but what was seized were only the internal rights. Therefore, the US owned patent rights to Zeiss lenses WITHIN THE US but not in Japan, where the Japanese recognized all German property rights properly registered in that nation and did so in every case EXCEPT for those of the optical & mechanical rights of the German camera companies!

This information is reported by Marc James Small of the Zeiss Historica Society. You can read more about this history in his book: "The Zeiss Compendium" (also under the title: "The Zeiss Ikon Compendium"). He has also written "Non-Leitz Leica Thread-Mount Lenses: A 39mm Diversity," which I have not read but which believe also covers this issue.

RObert Budding · 01-08-2005

I'm still looking for a nice post-war CZJ 85mm Sonnar. Anyone out there have one that you're willing to part with?

Robert

David Kieltyka · 01-08-2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Huck Finn
"To the victor belong the spoils."

David, I was absolutely NOT referring to the lawsuit in the German courts between Zeiss East & West. Carl Zeiss, USA sued Yashica in US courts in the 1950s for patent infringement & won.

Ah, forgot about that one.

Quote:

The designs "made their way" to Japan? What does this mean?

In the context of the immediate post-war period a lot of things happened that strictly speaking weren't legal or even ethical. Nonetheless they were allowed. The Americans allowed the Japanese to copy various Zeiss & Leica products.

Quote:

This information is reported by Marc James Small of the Zeiss Historica Society. You can read more about this history in his book: "The Zeiss Compendium" (also under the title: "The Zeiss Ikon Compendium"). He has also written "Non-Leitz Leica Thread-Mount Lenses: A 39mm Diversity," which I have not read but which believe also covers this issue.

I have both of 'em. Good reading for sure for anyone interested in Zeiss specifically and European LTM lenses in general.

-Dave-

David Kieltyka · 01-08-2005

Robert, the post-war 85mm Sonnars are getting scarce. But I have seen some offered. Kevin Cameras (www.kevincameras.com) currently has five post-war copies listed. None of 'em are cheap but then again these were very expensive lenses when new.

-Dave-

RObert Budding · 01-08-2005

David - Thanks for the link, but. . . the prices seem crazy. I paid $225 for a very nice 135/2.0 from Henry Scherer, including a complete service. Kevin's lists the same lense for over $400.