How advanced will the M8 be?

[Trius]

It may not be revolutionary, but it may be evolutionary enough that it represents a pinnacle of overall digital image quality. To wit: the Olympus E-1 has a measly 5MP density, yet many pros who use it, combined with ZD lenses, find that the image quality is something different and more "film-like" than other DSLRs of even higher resolution. I'm not pimping the E-1 or other E series, just saying that the whole is sometimes more than the sum of the parts.

In this case, M glass (whether Leica, Zeiss or other), combined with the characteristics of RF shooting, may make the M8 very special.

[J. Borger]

Originally Posted by ywenz

I predict the image quality from the m8 will be nothing revolutionary. It 'might' be evolutionary, but you'd expect that.. Other than the fact that you're able to use superior Leica lenses on it to produce nice quality bokeh. The M8 will be just another digicam with all the limitations of digital, just like how the Leica film-M is just another box to hold film..

Jeeze .. must be an awesome camera if you are right.
Never read something as positive and encouraging as this from your hand

[Mark Norton]

Just wondering what all these doom-mongers are going to say when the M8 proves to be the stunning camera we expect. That whining noise you'll be able to hear will be the sound of rapid back-pedalling...

[LCT]

Originally Posted by Mark Norton

...That whining noise you'll be able to hear will be the sound of rapid back-pedalling...

Would be surprising, Mark.
I'm yet hearing same people claiming that they can do the same with a mere Nikon D80 and, at least, with the latter, they don't get those ugly moiré artefacts and the last Canon digicam is soooo less noisy that it's a shame to pay $5000 for such an obsolete camera!!

[RIVI1969]

The question of how are we going to extract data in ten years from current USB ports is not a concern right now, of course some kind of devices to couple our current technology with the future one will be created. I rather wonder if film will be easily or available at all in 10 years. Without film all those precious signatured-limited-millenium-a-la-carte-MP's will be useless and of course worthless.

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by Trius

It may not be revolutionary, but it may be evolutionary enough that it represents a pinnacle of overall digital image quality.............
In this case, M glass (whether Leica, Zeiss or other), combined with the characteristics of RF shooting, may make the M8 very special.

That's what many of us hope, and will probable be true. I found my RD1 with Leica glass to be roughly equivelent to my 20D with Canon glass. Each image had its plusses and minusess, but generally the Leica glass and the less aggressive noise reduction pf the Epson, enabled me to move the RD1 up a notch to the 20D level despite having a megapixel disadvantage. However, you can't work miracles... megapixels be megapixels and noise be noise. I don't believe a 5 megapixel Olympus with its tiny sensor sites can ever produce images as good as the 20D.

But remember the M8 is a 10 megapixel camera. That a big jump up from the RD1's 6MP. With the excellent prime glass available, no anti-alaising filters, and intelligent noise reduction firmware, it wouldn't surprise me if the M8 approaches or equals the likes of the Canon 5D. Even if it didn't quite reach the 5D image quality, I would be happy.

I certainly wouldn't be holding my breath for the M9 or the 139megapixel M13 as so many of the "obsoletist" seem to think we ought to.

Rex

[Mark Norton]

A 10Mp sensor actually only offers a 30% increase in linear resolution. So, take a 30 * 20 R-D1 print and increase the size to 39 * 26 from an M8 and the resolution is the same.

I fully expect the M8 to comfortably out-perform the EOS 5D. An M8 with a 21mm Elmarit or an EOS 5D with whatever 28mm lens Canon will sell you. I know which I'd choose.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by rvaubel

I don't believe a 5 megapixel Olympus with its tiny sensor sites can ever produce images as good as the 20D.

But remember the M8 is a 10 megapixel camera. That a big jump up from the RD1's 6MP. With the excellent prime glass available, no anti-alaising filters, and intelligent noise reduction firmware, it wouldn't surprise me if the M8 approaches or equals the likes of the Canon 5D. Even if it didn't quite reach the 5D image quality, I would be happy.


Rex

Rex,
You might need to recheck your logic The 5MP Oly E-1 has 6.8µm pixels and the 20D has 6.4µm pixels, so it is the 20D that has the (reletively) tiny sensor sites
Also keep in mind that if the M8 uses a derivative of the Kodak KAF-10010 sensor it will also have those 6.8µm sensor sites that can't produce images as good as the 20D
What you may see after you get finished admiring the resolution is that the Kodak sensor tends to have very nice tonal and color gradients. This may be because the photosites have larger areas due to the FFT structure. They also have high Saturation Signals of 40k electrons, though Canon doesn't publish their specs for comparisons.
The 6MP Sony sensor in your RD-1 and (my KM5D) has 7.8µm sensor sites. Nice images, lower noise at high ISOs, but harsher (for my KM5D) tonal and color gradients than the E-1 (the Sony look=slightly video).
All in fun.
Bob

[rvaubel]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

Rex,
You might need to recheck your logic The 5MP Oly E-1 has 6.8µm pixels and the 20D has 6.4µm pixels, so it is the 20D that has the (reletively) tiny sensor sites .........
All in fun.
Bob

Bob

Perhaps what I should have said is the 5MP vs 8MP handicap of the Oly is just too much for the optical/everything else advantage the Oly may have. Granted, megapixels arent everything but down at these realitively low levels they do have a practical impact on image quality. At the 10MP level of the M8, I wouldn't get too excited about more pixels. Quality, not quantity becomes more determinative.

You make some very good points, however. Makes me happy the M8 will have a Kodak sensor.


Rex

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by rvaubel

Bob

Perhaps what I should have said is the 5MP vs 8MP handicap of the Oly is just too much for the optical/everything else advantage the Oly may have. Granted, megapixels arent everything but down at these realitively low levels they do have a practical impact on image quality.

Rex

Hi Rex,
I would say your statement hold true, if there is cropping involved and a very discerning viewer of the prints or if large prints are made. If we call a 300dpi print from the original whole frame a native print, then the 8MP will yield a 7.8" X 11.6" print and the 5MP (4:3) will yield a 6.8" X 8.5" print. If we adjust the dpi on the 5MP image to get 7.8" on the short side, you get 246dpi. An HP paper on printing rez said that the average person couldn't see an improvement after 240dpi. I think you might notice some fine detail gain if you looked closely. Start cropping (and who doesn't crop) and it is a new game where the 10MP will come in very handy. The native print for 10MP is 8.6" X 12.9". Not bad when they used to say that the best quality from a miniature camera (AKA 35mm) was in a 5" X 7" print.....
Bob

[ampguy]

most viewers cannot discern more than 240 - 300 dpi/ppi @ 10", and ~ 2 dpi/ppi at billboard distances.

There are advantages to actually reducing your file yourself, rather than giving your lab or printer a huger file than it can deal with, namely the ability to control sharpness.

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

Hi Rex,
I would say your statement hold true, if there is cropping involved and a very discerning viewer of the prints or if large prints are made. If we call a 300dpi print from the original whole frame a native print, then the 8MP will yield a 7.8" X 11.6" print and the 5MP (4:3) will yield a 6.8" X 8.5" print. If we adjust the dpi on the 5MP image to get 7.8" on the short side, you get 246dpi. An HP paper on printing rez said that the average person couldn't see an improvement after 240dpi. I think you might notice some fine detail gain if you looked closely. Start cropping (and who doesn't crop) and it is a new game where the 10MP will come in very handy. The native print for 10MP is 8.6" X 12.9". Not bad when they used to say that the best quality from a miniature camera (AKA 35mm) was in a 5" X 7" print.....
Bob

[black_box]

I noticed obsolete is only being used in terms as in 'obsolete value'... though, performance unthouched

[artur5]

Originally Posted by Mark Norton

A 10Mp sensor actually only offers a 30% increase in linear resolution. So, take a 30 * 20 R-D1 print and increase the size to 39 * 26 from an M8 and the resolution is the same.

I fully expect the M8 to comfortably out-perform the EOS 5D. An M8 with a 21mm Elmarit or an EOS 5D with whatever 28mm lens Canon will sell you. I know which I'd choose.

Ah, but you can put an Elmarit-R 28 ( or a Zeiss Distagon) on the 5D..
That's what I do ( well, not a Elmarit-28 but a Contax 21/2.8 ).
Anyway I hope and expect that the M8 will outperform, but not much, a 5D - at least from ISO 200 to 800.
BTW I have seen Sean Reid's review and what it amazes me is not the noise on the M8 at high ISOs, but the absolute lack of it on the 5D 100% crops.
I seldom use settings above 400 ISO with the Canon, but when I tried 3200 I got way, way more noise that you can see on the review, it's on a pair with the M8 at 2500 but uglier -patchy, filamentous.
I'm wondering if I have a defective unit or it's Adobe Camera Raw so bad..?

Regards
Arturo