Bokeh Babble

Oh Two · 08-09-2006

Well, it seems the bokeh issue seems to pop more than now again in lens choice.
So how important is to you in your lens selection, and which lenses are you favorite for the most dreamy bokeh? For me bokeh goes hand in hand with depth of field and is one of the major personality traits of a given lens. Is bokeh degenerating or disregarded in newer lens design?

My choices for best bokeh available with least compromise for sharpness:
1. f2.8 35mm Summaron
2. f2 35mm Summicron 1st version
3. f4 135mm Elmar (non tele)
4. f2 50mm Dual Range Summicron

richard_l · 08-09-2006

1. 90/2.8 Tele-Elmarit
2. 35/2.8 Summaron

I doubt that bokeh is seriously considered in lens design. That's just my opinion, of course.

Richard

rover · 08-09-2006

My 35/2 Summicron 4th and Rigid 50 Summicron stand out to me from my bag.

wintoid · 08-09-2006

I've owned and used Hexanon 28, 35 and 50 lenses, plus 35 Summicron pre-asph and Nokton 40. Out of those, only one lens stood out as having good bokeh in my personal opinion. I feel my Canon DSLR has a much better choice of lenses with great bokeh.

Hexanon 50mm all the way.

Dougg · 08-10-2006

Is bokeh suffering from modern aspheric lens designs? Getting harsher? I'm not sure that this is so... There are plenty of older respected lenses that display unpleasant bokeh effects too. Maybe with the new lenses it's the improved sharpness and contrast of the in-focus stuff that stands in starker contrast to the out-of-focus areas. And it could be that the loss of dreaminess in the "sharp" parts erases the softness from the bokeh as well...

Gabriel M.A. · 08-10-2006

Of my rangefinder lenses, I think it's still a close call between my 50mm Summarit and my Zeiss-Opton Sonnar 50mm f/1.5.

Of the other lenses, I think, perhaps, either the Xenar 75mm f/3.5 on my Rolleiflex, or *gasp*, would you believe it, my Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 zoom lens? It has a few molded aspherical lenses.

I think I read somewhere that Leica helped develop the technology for the aspherical lens molding...is this right?

JimG · 08-10-2006

Gotta' go with the Elmar 90 f4. One of my favorite lenses.

Todd.Hanz · 08-10-2006

50mm collapsible summicron, really smooth! Some manufacturers do put a higher number of blades into their lenses to improve OOF highlights, I think 10 or more.

Todd

ElrodCod · 08-10-2006

Bokeh Schmokeh! Who cares? I don't do yoga or tofu either.

MCTuomey · 08-10-2006

i prefer -

of the 50s I've tried: summilux 50/1.4 pre-asph and summarit 50/1.5
of the 75s I've tried: summilux 75/1.4, tho' the CV 75/2.5 is really very nice
of the 90s I've tried: 90/2.8 tele-elmarit

but the very best imho is my canon eos 200/1.8 - gawd it's near perfect and (sob) i can't afford it any longer

Gabriel M.A. · 08-10-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElrodCod

Bokeh Schmokeh! Who cares? I don't do yoga or tofu either.

Ah, what took this comment so long? How's Photo.net, btw?

jaapv · 08-10-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougg

Is bokeh suffering from modern aspheric lens designs? Getting harsher? I'm not sure that this is so... There are plenty of older respected lenses that display unpleasant bokeh effects too. Maybe with the new lenses it's the improved sharpness and contrast of the in-focus stuff that stands in starker contrast to the out-of-focus areas. And it could be that the loss of dreaminess in the "sharp" parts erases the softness from the bokeh as well...

Yes it is. The higher the state of correction of the lens the harsher the boke (generally speaking) The sharper edges to the light-disks break up the outline of unsharp shapes.

steve garza · 08-10-2006

Bokeh is a nice concept/feature. But it would never influence a lens purchase as much as sharpness or speed.

MCTuomey · 08-10-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv

Yes it is. The higher the state of correction of the lens the harsher the boke (generally speaking) The sharper edges to the light-disks break up the outline of unsharp shapes.

jaap, i don't understand. practical point of view, i have a very sharp canon telephoto, the 200/1.8, and it has stunning bokeh, i'd say incomparable

are you saying the sharper the lens, the harsher the lens, without reference to other variables like focal length and speed?

Flyfisher Tom · 08-10-2006

In order ...

50 cron (IV & V)
50/1.5 Canon ltm
35 cron-asph / 35 lux-asph (different but tied)

bit unfair comparing different focal lengths

jaapv · 08-10-2006

No I am not saying that, Mike. Sorry for not making myself clear.The better the lens is corrected outside the plane of focus, as the current apo and asph lenses tend to be, the harsher the bokeh. Good older design lenses like your Canon tend to be sharp on the plane of focus, but less well corrected in the unsharp zone, giving the beloved creamy boke.Of course, if the correction is really grotty, you get bad boke, double contours, rings, et.

Gabriel M.A. · 08-10-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyfisher Tom

In order ...

50 cron (IV & V)
50/1.5 Canon ltm
35 cron-asph / 35 lux-asph (different but tied)

Really?? It's not a sarcastic "really??" but a shocked and confused one.

You think the 35 cron and lux asphs are "below" the level of this kind of bokeh?:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...00&ppuser=1505

That's with a Canon 50 f/1.5 shot wide open.

So is this one:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...00&ppuser=1505

jaapv · 08-10-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrielma

Really?? It's not a sarcastic "really??" but a shocked and confused one.

You think the 35 cron and lux asphs are "below" the level of this kind of bokeh?:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...00&ppuser=1505

That's with a Canon 50 f/1.5 shot wide open.

So is this one:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...00&ppuser=1505

I really don't want to be unpleasant, but I agree the boke in those shots (good photographs btw) is really not my cup of tea. The straight lines tend to double up, making it like I forgot to wear my glasses.

Gabriel M.A. · 08-10-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaapv

I really don't want to be unpleasant, but I agree the boke in those shots (good photographs btw) is really not my cup of tea. The straight lines tend to double up, making it like I forgot to wear my glasses.

It's ok, it is what it is (the photo). Thanks, btw. Yeah, this is the worst example (bokeh-wise) I was able to get from the Canon 50 f/1.5; it was obviously by accident. Most other shots have a very Sonnar-like bokeh, but shots with straight lines in the background exhibit this behaviour with this lens; otherwise, it's rather pleasing.

08-10-2006

Post deleted by posters request

Flyfisher Tom · 08-10-2006

Gabriel,

That is why I said that comparing across focal lengths is a bit unfair. All things being equal, a longer lens is always going to have a greater OOF effect than shorter ones. For instance, I think that the Canon 50/1.4 (EF) is one of the best bokeh lenses ever. But I also think that the 70-200/2.8 gives even more dramatic OOF effect and bokeh. Does that mean that the 70-200 actually trumps the 50? I don't think so. They should be judged within their focal length class.

More importantly, they need to be judged under the same subject and testing conditions.

I believe within the 50mm class, the Canon 1.5 has very pleasing bokeh. I agree that those two shots you've selected aren't the best samples of bokeh. And here is where the fine print is ... would similar 50mms have fared better? That is always the trouble with bokeh comparisons, usually there are no controls for similar subjects and similar lighting conditions. For instance, I see a lot of bokeh tests where the tester has selected trees with tons of leaves in the background. Come on, who are we kidding, no lens does well with that background

Or cases where there are an inordinate amount of circular pinpoint lights in the background. Or parallel line patterns .... etc. etc.

The only way to know for sure is to test each lens under the same controls

Just haven't seen any comprehensive test. So the best I can say is, I like the Canon 1.5 within the 50 class.

And within the 35mm class, I'd rank the lux-asph and cron-asph highest. But this is like asking what a woman's objective beauty is ... to every man (or woman) there is only a subjective answer

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrielma

You think the 35 cron and lux asphs are "below" the level of this kind of bokeh?: