AGFA Isolette III Solinar v. Apotar

[tron]

Hi, guys.

I have just bought this folder with an Apotar. However, my friends told me the lens quality of an Apotar is inferior and I should have got an Solinar.

Is that a fair comment ?

[P C Headland]

Yes, it is fair comment. But stop the Apotar down to f8 or more, and you'd be hard pressed to see the difference. Unless you check your wallet ....

[Wimpler]

Such comments are rarely from people who actually have used them both.

[Trius]

Wimpler: Maybe you could expand on that. I've got an eBay search set up for Isolettes. I'd like to know your experience with both lens types.

[tron]

Thanks, guy. I primarily buy a folder because I do a lot of hiking, taking scenery pictures. The Contax G2, TX-2 and GA645Zi can all do the job but I have a strong liking for antique cameras and it's actually much lighter compared with the other cameras of mine - one that I can slip into my backpack all the time.

Stopping down, under such circumstances, will not be a problem and I can see that an Apotar is far cheaper than a Solinar.

Maybe I will have both someday.

Having started the thread, I want to save web space and so I pose the other question here (since you are all experts of folders anyway).

I have just bidded for a 1930s' Voigtlander Bessa 6x9, it has a 105/3.5 Skopar. Is it nice ?

[kaiyen]

I had an Apotar. Have never had a Solinar. I stopped down to at least f8 most of the time because I was zone focusing, but the times I shot at f4 still looked great to me. I would not second-guess yourself.

allan

[Solinar]

The Apotar at f/5.6 isn't exactly shabby. In fact, that where I set the aperture on one of a Billy Record II that I've upgraded to the last version of the 105/4.5 Apotar. It's a long story.

Now, to change the subject. If that pre-war Bessa has a coupled-RF and a Skopar, you'll be more than impressed. By chance, should you be swimming in the dark and not know an uncoupled from a coupled rangefinder, then you may want to slow down on your folder quest.

Post war Agfas with their original factory bellows need them replaced. In other words, you buy a post war Agfa folder, you replace the bellows.

Best 6x6 folder for the money is an Iskra, if it is in good useable condition.

[Wimpler]

You would have a hard time telling a roll taken with an apotar from one with a solinar. When taking test shots on a tripod and wide open, I'm sure you will see it. But who is going to put a folder on a tripod and shoot wide open?

Also, I love the look of skopar lenses. Hard to describe it. Make sure you try some color film with it.

[tron]

Thanks. I know my way concerning RF. I have been researching and playing with friends' before making up my mind this is something I want. What I have just got (Bessa) is exactluy what you've described, so guess I am going to enjoy .

Originally Posted by Solinar

The Apotar at f/5.6 isn't exactly shabby. In fact, that where I set the aperture on one of a Billy Record II that I've upgraded to the last version of the 105/4.5 Apotar. It's a long story.

Now, to change the subject. If that pre-war Bessa has a coupled-RF and a Skopar, you'll be more than impressed. By chance, should you be swimming in the dark and not know an uncoupled from a coupled rangefinder, then you may want to slow down on your folder quest.

Post war Agfas with their original factory bellows need them replaced. In other words, you buy a post war Agfa folder, you replace the bellows.

Best 6x6 folder for the money is an Iskra, if it is in good useable condition.

[Pherdinand]

AFAIK, apotar belongs to the triplet category that was the 'cheaper' version of the lenses in the times when the 'solinar' and other 4-element lenses (skopar, xenar, tessar...)were the more expensive ones.
Then came lenses with five elements (Planar, xenotar, heliar...) and everybody said the tessars suck, the xenars are unsharp, the skopars are not worthy of their $.

But you can be more optimistic and compare the agfa's apotar to the agnar! In that case you have the better version

No really, I have no experience with the apotar nor the solinar, but i do have experience with different lenses from these two categories (novar anastigmat versus tessar,xenar etc) and I can tell you that in 6x6, the triplets can perform amazingly. Wide open the results are very pleasing, and in may cases special looking; stopped down the sharpness is more than enough.

Sharpness-wise, in a 50 y old folder the correct working of the camera (correct lens to film distance, parallelity, steadiness of the lens board) is much more important than the lens type.

[tron]

Thanks, guys. I am not really worried. To me, sharpness of a pciture is not the utmost priority. In fact, I tend to enjoy the fresco feel (in particular the bokeh) given by some antique lenses such as the Kinoptik or Cooke Speed Pancho.

It's just that I heard this saying often and I want to find out how true it is. As pointed out by some friends, a lot of comments made here are not by users with first hand experience.

[Krosya]

Originally Posted by tron

Thanks, guy. I primarily buy a folder because I do a lot of hiking, taking scenery pictures. The Contax G2, TX-2 and GA645Zi can all do the job but I have a strong liking for antique cameras and it's actually much lighter compared with the other cameras of mine - one that I can slip into my backpack all the time.

Stopping down, under such circumstances, will not be a problem and I can see that an Apotar is far cheaper than a Solinar.

Maybe I will have both someday.

Having started the thread, I want to save web space and so I pose the other question here (since you are all experts of folders anyway).

I have just bidded for a 1930s' Voigtlander Bessa 6x9, it has a 105/3.5 Skopar. Is it nice ?

Hello,
While I do not have any experience with Agfa cameras - I do with other folders. In particular with Voigtlander Bessa RF with Skopar. Superb cameras, with great mechanics and great lenses. I did post some comments and photos taken with these here before, so look at some Folder discussions. For a 6x9 format, in folding cameras - Bessas are hard to beat - assuming it's in good shape. Some are, others are not. I had repaired some and brought some back to life and they amazed me. In my experience, Bessas are so well built to begin with - it's hard to cause damage without trying. Many other folders age much worse and require more service. But OTOH, Bessa in good condition will cost more initially. In any respect - good investment.
George

[tron]

Thanks, Krosya. I paid quite dearly (in my budget) for the Bessa and I hold high expectation. I picked up photography again a couple of years back, mainly because of my liking for hiking. Folders are indeed the best companion for hiking.

Can you point me to your pictures and can you enlighten me with points I have to pay attention to when using a Bessa ? The last thing I want is to ruin the camera with my effort, since the eBay mechandize does not come with an instruction booklet. I have tried finding an electronic manual on the web but I do not have much luck so far.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Krosya

Hello,
While I do not have any experience with Agfa cameras - I do with other folders. In particular with Voigtlander Bessa RF with Skopar. Superb cameras, with great mechanics and great lenses. I did post some comments and photos taken with these here before, so look at some Folder discussions. For a 6x9 format, in folding cameras - Bessas are hard to beat - assuming it's in good shape. Some are, others are not. I had repaired some and brought some back to life and they amazed me. In my experience, Bessas are so well built to begin with - it's hard to cause damage without trying. Many other folders age much worse and require more service. But OTOH, Bessa in good condition will cost more initially. In any respect - good investment.
George

[Solinar]

It's not any of my beeswax, but what did the old Bessa cost, a couple of hundred?

For a 6x9 medium format that is slim and portable, this may prove to be a sound investment provided that the Bessa sees long term use. For instance it took me a year and half to warm up to my Agfa Record III and it has the better 4 element, tessar type lens.

In reference to those less than highly regarded Cooke Triplets - Here is a quick scan from an Apotar shot wide open on a $15.00 Billy Record II.

[Krosya]

Originally Posted by tron

Thanks, Krosya. I paid quite dearly (in my budget) for the Bessa and I hold high expectation. I picked up photography again a couple of years back, mainly because of my liking for hiking. Folders are indeed the best companion for hiking.

Can you point me to your pictures and can you enlighten me with points I have to pay attention to when using a Bessa ? The last thing I want is to ruin the camera with my effort, since the eBay mechandize does not come with an instruction booklet. I have tried finding an electronic manual on the web but I do not have much luck so far.

Thanks.

Hi Tron,
I think you found my pictures already - I saw your question in other thread. As far as points to use it - I'm not sure what you mean. Could you be more specific with your question - I'll answer all I can.
One thing that some people talk often when it comes to these type of cameras is - film flatness. So don't wind it to next frame till right before you ready to take a photo. It seems to work for me. My both Bessas do well with that treatment. Well, not both anymore - I sold one, to finance other cameras. But I still keep another one. It's unlikely I'll ever get rid of it. I just like it so much.
What else can I tell you - keep shutter uncocked, and ring set at 1 sec speed when not in use, that way it'll keep springs in better shape. Well, obvious things - as it's a RF - don't drop/bump, etc. it. Unfold and fold carefully, not to bend arms. They are strong, but can be bent too, and than you have major problems.
If you don't use it often - take it off the shelf (or where you keep it - take it out of safe, hehe), and run shutter at different speeds every now and then, just to keep parts moving.
Any questions - ask here - many knowledgable people here will help.
George

[tron]

you're near, i paid nearly five hundred bucks for one which looks great in picture, still waiting for the shipment to arrive .

Originally Posted by Solinar

It's not any of my beeswax, but what did the old Bessa cost, a couple of hundred?

For a 6x9 medium format that is slim and portable, this may prove to be a sound investment provided that the Bessa sees long term use. For instance it took me a year and half to warm up to my Agfa Record III and it has the better 4 element, tessar type lens.

In reference to those less than highly regarded Cooke Triplets - Here is a quick scan from an Apotar shot wide open on a $15.00 Billy Record II.

[tron]

thanks, krosya. these are the things i want to know. still remembr those days when i knew little about the characters of older cameras, and for one example i can quote, i had the shutter of the hasselblad locked.

people here are really forthcoming and helpful.

Originally Posted by Krosya

Hi Tron,
I think you found my pictures already - I saw your question in other thread. As far as points to use it - I'm not sure what you mean. Could you be more specific with your question - I'll answer all I can.
One thing that some people talk often when it comes to these type of cameras is - film flatness. So don't wind it to next frame till right before you ready to take a photo. It seems to work for me. My both Bessas do well with that treatment. Well, not both anymore - I sold one, to finance other cameras. But I still keep another one. It's unlikely I'll ever get rid of it. I just like it so much.
What else can I tell you - keep shutter uncocked, and ring set at 1 sec speed when not in use, that way it'll keep springs in better shape. Well, obvious things - as it's a RF - don't drop/bump, etc. it. Unfold and fold carefully, not to bend arms. They are strong, but can be bent too, and than you have major problems.
If you don't use it often - take it off the shelf (or where you keep it - take it out of safe, hehe), and run shutter at different speeds every now and then, just to keep parts moving.
Any questions - ask here - many knowledgable people here will help.
George

[wlewisiii]

Yoikes! for that many coins, I hope it's as near perfection as is imaginable.

I do prefer the look of the four element Tessar types, but I've always gotten very good results (even wide open) from the "cheap" triplets. Give a lens a fair workout before worrying about what someone else tells you. If you decide you don't like the look from that old Isolette III, just let me know and we'll work something out...

One film that I have found to bring out all the flair (not flare ) of an old folder lens is Fuji Reala CS. Be sure to try a roll or two in that Bessa once you get it. Some of my favorite shots were done with an Iskra & a Moskva 5 on Reala.

Good luck and good light!

William

[Krosya]

Originally Posted by tron

you're near, i paid nearly five hundred bucks for one which looks great in picture, still waiting for the shipment to arrive .

I think I know the one you got - comes from Holland or something, right? If it's the one I'm thinking of - you got a good camera - that person is a very reputable dealer in old cameras. I never buy anything from him - he's waaaaay overpriced, but from what I hear he deals in high quality items.
I just sold mine - which is just like that, but later (latest) model, for a bit less than that, and mine was in perfect condition, CLA'd , and tested - well, - you saw the pictures. So, If it's the one I think it is - you will get a very nice camera. And if you did overpay a little - you'll have a peice of mind that you got a quality item. Sometimes it's much better than buying one blindfolded.
So, in any respect - congrats!!!!!!!!!!! Just take your time with it , when you get it, learn to handhold it to get good results. Lefthanded operation takes some getting use to. Actually I find it comfortable now that I used it for a while. And DO run some B&W film through it - thats where you get the best tonality and feel with Skopar. But as you have seen in my pictures - it does well with colour film as well. Can't wait to hear your impressions and see your pictures here, so please post them.
Enjoy.
George

[Solinar]

George's methodology is right on the mark.

A little addition to George's comments on usage - On the Compur Rapid and Synchro-Compur shutters there is a secondary internal spring for its fastest shutter speed.

When arming/cocking the shutter while it is set to its fastest shutter speed - the cocking action should feel stiff when compared to arming the shutter at the slower shutter speeds.

Therefore, with regards to setting the fastest shutters speed, always change the shutter speed ring into or out of the Compur's highest shutter speed BEFORE manually cocking the shutter.

Congratulations and enjoy. In addition to B/W negs, you'll be floored the first time you receive back of a roll of E-6 Provia or Velvia.

[tron]

Originally Posted by wlewisiii

Yoikes! for that many coins, I hope it's as near perfection as is imaginable.

I do prefer the look of the four element Tessar types, but I've always gotten very good results (even wide open) from the "cheap" triplets. Give a lens a fair workout before worrying about what someone else tells you. If you decide you don't like the look from that old Isolette III, just let me know and we'll work something out...

One film that I have found to bring out all the flair (not flare ) of an old folder lens is Fuji Reala CS. Be sure to try a roll or two in that Bessa once you get it. Some of my favorite shots were done with an Iskra & a Moskva 5 on Reala.

Good luck and good light!

William

William, are you suggesting me to sell you the Isolette III ? Kind of premature cos' I have yet to lay hands on it and the Bessa. Anyway, thanks for your offer if that's the case. I think I can have confidence on this dealer based on past experience dealing with him. That's actually why I was willing to pay more than usual. Where I am from, it will be a pain in the neck to repair a folder. Someday, I may have to rely on your guys to help me find some expert craftsmen to handle maintenance.

[tron]

Originally Posted by Krosya

I think I know the one you got - comes from Holland or something, right? If it's the one I'm thinking of - you got a good camera - that person is a very reputable dealer in old cameras. I never buy anything from him - he's waaaaay overpriced, but from what I hear he deals in high quality items.
I just sold mine - which is just like that, but later (latest) model, for a bit less than that, and mine was in perfect condition, CLA'd , and tested - well, - you saw the pictures. So, If it's the one I think it is - you will get a very nice camera. And if you did overpay a little - you'll have a peice of mind that you got a quality item. Sometimes it's much better than buying one blindfolded.
So, in any respect - congrats!!!!!!!!!!! Just take your time with it , when you get it, learn to handhold it to get good results. Lefthanded operation takes some getting use to. Actually I find it comfortable now that I used it for a while. And DO run some B&W film through it - thats where you get the best tonality and feel with Skopar. But as you have seen in my pictures - it does well with colour film as well. Can't wait to hear your impressions and see your pictures here, so please post them.
Enjoy.
George

George, you see, I said there's an abundance of experts here. You can even tell where I bought my camera with so little information. Yes, I bought it from Peter of the Netherlands. I have previously dealt with him before. You hit the spot when you said his stuff are pricey, but of good quality. I have learnt to know that buying from a good quality seller is of utmost importance, especially this guy seems to be willing to offer after sales advice. There are loads of torn and worn folders available at peanuts, but I have no use with them.

I also intend to use these old timer for shooting B/W. While I am not into developing (because of safety considerations - I have a little girl at home who will lay hands on almost anything at home she knows of). Having said that, I know some well qualified developers who will do a good job.

Be patient when I trouble you guys about how to get the most out of my newly acquired treasure.

[tron]

Originally Posted by Solinar

George's methodology is right on the mark.

A little addition to George's comments on usage - On the Compur Rapid and Synchro-Compur shutters there is a secondary internal spring for its fastest shutter speed.

When arming/cocking the shutter while it is set to its fastest shutter speed - the cocking action should feel stiff when compared to arming the shutter at the slower shutter speeds.

Therefore, with regards to setting the fastest shutters speed, always change the shutter speed ring into or out of the Compur's highest shutter speed BEFORE manually cocking the shutter.

Congratulations and enjoy. In addition to B/W negs, you'll be floored the first time you receive back of a roll of E-6 Provia or Velvia.

Andrew, thanks for the tip. I read this from the website of another seller in Germany. My understanding of his word of caution is that you should cock the shutter before switching to the desired high speed, right ?

[Solinar]

You may have it backwards. You should adjust the shutter speed, first ---> then you cock the shutter.

A brief final note, because I'm at work, - 6x9 folders really did rejuvenate my interest in photography. 8 exposures to a roll meant same day development. Also, it was the push that I needed to build another darkroom.

[Laurence]

Andrew, I can only concur with the "knock me to the floor" feeling when seeing those 6x6 transparencies on the light board from my Isolette III. Wow, wow, wow. Screamingingly sharp, edge to edge.