Victory day

[ruben]

Today I want to extend my personal congratulations to all those who participated in this or other way in the fight against the Fascist regimes at WW2.
First perhapas should be recalled the FSU peoples who diyed by the millions at their Great Patriotic War.
Special mention too should be given to all those under occupyied Europe, who instead of seeking a peaceful life under Nazi sky, joined the partizan forces, and when catched alive were sent to the Nazi extermination camps.

Special mention too should be given to the German opposers of Fascism, both humble workers at military factories and aristocrats as well, like the Shultze Boysen family, who joined the Soviet spy all European network, known as the 'Red Orchestra' - who died heroically at the Gestapo torture chambers without opening their mouths.

Mention too should be granted to all those who without being organized at any level, offered generous help to partizans, to escaping jews and other actions, involving risking their lifes too.

Finnally I want to mention the Polish Jew Mark Edelman, one of the main leaders of the heroic Warsaw Jewish getho Insurrection, still alive but ignored by Israel autorities for not belonging to the Zionist credo.

For all that international effort, for all that heroism under the most adverse circumstamces - humble greetins.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS: Note should be taken about how at the darkest times some of men go to their lowest animal feelings and behaviours, while others to their best.

[justins7]

When you realize what people went through in that war, particularly the Russians, it is absolutely astonishing. The fact that the Soviet Army resisted the Nazis is one of history's great triumphs. It should not be forgotten and the Soviets deserved credit for this industrial/human challenge.
Plus look at all those Kievs and Zorkis they produced, not to mention Ural motorcycles.

[clarence]

I have mixed feelings about wars. All I can agree on is that many people made many sacrifices, and we should never forget the past.

Clarence

[markinlondon]

And a special mention to Ernst Leitz and his daughter Else for the freedom train.

Incidentally, Justin, did you realise that the Kievs were a result of war reparations. The USSR was given the Zeiss Contax operation including the original tooling so when people say a Kiev is a prewar Contax they're not kidding (apologies if I'm giving egg-sucking lessons here).

Mark

[Solinar]

I was a grand total of minus eight years old when the war in Europe ended. Both my parents immigrated to the US from separate parts of world because of the second world war. Frankly, I feel lucky that I wasn't around during that tulmultous epoch. The world would be a better place if all our politicians were limited to "one" five year term.

[Jocko]

I know this is not about photography, but stories are being lost with the passing generations and I think this is pertinant to Ruben's post.

My late Uncle, Sgt. Major Archibald Macalister, Royal Engineers, participated in the liberation of Belsen. He can be glimpsed in some of the photographs taken at the time.

My family came from a largely Jewish neighbourhood in the East End of London. Although Belsen was not a racial extermination camp, this particular fight was "personal". My Grandfather had died in 1940, and I remember as a child my Uncle describing, how, as he entered the camp, an old man reached out towards him. At that moment, he recalled, one thought filled his mind - "that man is my Father". He lived by that insight for the rest of his life. I recall a man of spectacular goodness.

But. There is a sequel. Some days later my Uncle came across a large, abandoned country house. A group of British troops were piling up furniture, books paintings - and smashing them. They had seem the horror of the camp and were responding with an orgy of maniacal destruction. They were totally out of control, drunk on destruction and unhindered power. He was horrified and ashamed. Their delerium of hate differed only in degree from that of the Nazis - who also began by burning books.

So; this is Victory Day; but ultimately not a victory over any nation or people, nor even perhaps anything that could be dignified as an ideology. The evil that seized Germany from 1933-45 was a manifestation of a filth that lies in the abyss of the human spirit and has surfaced in every time and place. It is a battle they fought and won at unthinkable cost - and one we must fight too, starting in ourselves.

Ian

[clarence]

Thanks for the very balanced observation, Ian. I have similar feelings as well.

Clarence

[lushd]

Originally Posted by Jocko

So; this is Victory Day; but ultimately not a victory over any nation or people, nor even perhaps anything that could be dignified as an ideology. The evil that seized Germany from 1933-45 was a manifestation of a filth that lies in the abyss of the human spirit and has surfaced in every time and place. It is a battle they fought and won at unthinkable cost - and one we must fight too, starting in ourselves.

Ian

Ian - amen to that. Nicely said.

[Nikon Bob]

Ian

Another amen to your post, very well said.

Nikon Bob

[Toby]

I don't think we can have a victory day until things like Rwanda and Darfur stop happening or we start doing more stop them instead of going to war to protect our own oil supply

[clarence]

Originally Posted by Toby

I don't think we can have a victory day until things like Rwanda and Darfur stop happening or we start doing more stop them instead of going to war to protect our own oil supply

I think it would be best to remember the past and to use that rememberance to make a difference in the present. Sadly, it doesn't always work, especially when trouble happens elsewhere.

I don't know what sort of solution might make things better in the Dark Continent and elsewhere.

Clarence

[drmatthes]

Ian,

another amen to that one!

Ruben,

you are right. Still somewhere in between the black and white lies the ever disturbing grey zone that was imposed upon Germans living in a dictatorship back in those days, like Veit Harnack and Harro Schulze-Boysen who all served Nazi organizations at some point of their career. My late Grandpa, a Weimar Republic Conservative, strongly opposed to the Nazis, never a Party Member, was sent off as a "Stabsarzt" (Forces Medic) to the West Front and served his country somewhere near Paris. After July 20th, 1944, he was arrested, being suspect supporter of the plot against Hitler, which was perfectly true. He kept his mouth shut as well and consequently was expelled from the army by order of loss of all his ranks and sent back to Germany to keep up medical service for the people - that was the thing that saved his life, I suppose. I still own letters by Nazi authorities stating that, after this, he still supported Polish POW with Fructose to keep them alive, and, with the local Protestant reverend, he went off to the woods by bicycle to supply some of the last hidden Jews with food. Nevertheless (or rather therefore), he has always been claiming, on a very humble basis, to be a German patriot.

It is so hard to tell how different people behaved in these situations, it seems even harder to tell how we would have behaved, and it is my country's burden that we had everything between Sophie Scholl and Heinrich Himmler.

Let us not forget these people, the former as an ideal, the latter as a warning.

By the way, it's great to be in this forum and speak freely about these issues, however painful they may be, and being part of this, a democratic RF community.

Thanks, Jorge!

Jesko

[nzeeman]

Originally Posted by ruben

Today I want to extend my personal congratulations to all those who participated in this or other way in the fight against the Fascist regimes at WW2.
First perhapas should be recalled the FSU peoples who diyed by the millions at their Great Patriotic War.
Special mention too should be given to all those under occupyied Europe, who instead of seeking a peaceful life under Nazi sky, joined the partizan forces, and when catched alive were sent to the Nazi extermination camps.

Special mention too should be given to the German opposers of Fascism, both humble workers at military factories and aristocrats as well, like the Shultze Boysen family, who joined the Soviet spy all European network, known as the 'Red Orchestra' - who died heroically at the Gestapo torture chambers without opening their mouths.

Mention too should be granted to all those who without being organized at any level, offered generous help to partizans, to escaping jews and other actions, involving risking their lifes too.

Finnally I want to mention the Polish Jew Mark Edelman, one of the main leaders of the heroic Warsaw Jewish getho Insurrection, still alive but ignored by Israel autorities for not belonging to the Zionist credo.

For all that international effort, for all that heroism under the most adverse circumstamces - humble greetins.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS: Note should be taken about how at the darkest times some of men go to their lowest animal feelings and behaviours, while others to their best.

Sorry for saying this but - i really hate days like this. TV shows, ceremonies ... Everybody talking how bad Germans are and how great allies are. I live in Serbia and we were occupied by Germany. Ask any old man and he will tell you that he haven\t a single problem with germans and when Russian and communist came we had rapings, killings ... So dont believe all that histoory tell you. It is written by winners. Do you really think Gemans were bad guys and others were nice? In war everybody is dirty - there is no good and bad. Its all about economy and profit. So people please think with your heads and dont let them fool you.
I hope you wont get mad for this. Its just my opinion.
bye bye

[lubitel]

I agree that in the war there is no good and bad guys. But someone has started it. Bombing dresden for example, may have been an act of revenge, but the english havent started the war. Russians have brought death and rape with them, but so have the Germans. Whether it was SS or the "regular soldier" doesnt matter, millions of people were burned, shot, hanged or sent to conc.camp. My great grandparents, my great uncles and their families, were killed for being jewish. When my father returned to their hometown in Moldova, there was not one person left to tell the story of what happened.

[fgianni]

Originally Posted by nzeeman

Do you really think Gemans were bad guys and others were nice? In war everybody is dirty - there is no good and bad.

True but who did start the war?
Wo did engage in the systematic extermination of the Jew?

In war everybody is dirty but it looks to me that someone was dirtier.

And Ruben, it is historically incorrect to define the Nazi regime as a Fascist regime, there are significant differencies, I do agree that they were both evil, my point is that they were different things.

[Evgeny S]

Originally Posted by nzeeman

...I live in Serbia and we were occupied by Germany. Ask any old man and he will tell you that he haven\t a single problem with germans and when Russian and communist came we had rapings, killings ...

Could you please give the facts of such killings of Serbs and rapes of the Serbian women by soldiers of Red Army. I assume that Soviet soldiers killed civil Germans and raped their women (although it was not the common practice at all, as it's described by "modern historians" now), but to kill and rape Serbs?????!!! Serbs were the most brotherly non-USSR nation for Russians and your words are unbelievable!
But probably you ment the Russian cossacks, who served in German army (and Waffen-SS) and acted against Tito's partisans in Yugoslavia. I think they could do such things against Serbs, but in fact they were traitors and *******s by all means. During and after the war practically all of them who were captured by Red Army were immediately executed or imprisoned in GULAG (where 99% of them soon died anyway).

[fgianni]

Originally Posted by lubitel

I agree that in the war there is no good and bad guys. But someone has started it. Bombing dresden for example, may have been an act of revenge, but the english havent started the war.

I always thought myself that bombing Dresden was a war crime, the city had no military relevance, but an enormous artistic and historical importance.
It was a bit like bombing the pyramids if you are at war with Egypt.
(Thanks God the Israeli did not do that)

[fgianni]

Originally Posted by nzeeman

Ask any old man and he will tell you that he haven\t a single problem with germans and when Russian and communist came we had rapings, killings ... So dont believe all that histoory tell you. It is written by winners. Do you really think Gemans were bad guys and others were nice? In war everybody is dirty - there is no good and bad. Its all about economy and profit. So people please think with your heads and dont let them fool you.
I hope you wont get mad for this. Its just my opinion.
bye bye

Sorry I don't agree iit's a matter of opinion: you state facts, you either have some supporting evidence or they are only hearsay, opinions plays no role in it.

[ZorkiFan]

Here is the link on differences between the Natzis and facists;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facist#Nazism_and_fascism

As stated we do owe a debt to all the people who fought WWII, no telling how far it may have spread unchecked.

As for war crimes,

Hmm... here in the U.S. we had one guy the raped and killed 48 women and may have raped and killed at least 8 more. That is just one guy. I you had a rifle squad of guys who all were doing this, especially if they were above the law, like soldiers usually are in an occupation, a great many women could be abused in a short time.

I have heard stories of U.S. soldiers in Vietnam who went bad and committed similar crimes. While the U.S. should be expected to hold them responsible (they have in some cases), it wasn't done under orders from the U.S. So I would say it isn't the U.S. that did it.

Not to discount what a horrible abuse of authority acts like these are.

I do feel that if we begin to blame a country for the crimes of but a few people, we will have many more wars than we do now.

[Solinar]

Patriotism aside, nearly every war time army has skeletons in the closet. What to me places the Nazis into the worst case war crimes scenario is that there was a plan for ethnic cleansing that started at the top leadership.

Much of the military when I was in the service were conscripts and young. Young soldiers usually do not have the prudence of Supreme Court justices. When the troops become abusive or engage in vigilante behavior tragedies follow. I doubt that the top political leadership back in Washington and those inthe Pentagon encouraged such behavior.

On the subject of combat photographers, they are generally paid to portray a patriotic view of the war front. What you see in print or on the TV screen doesn't necessarily show the realities on the ground.

[nzeeman]

Here are some facts- my mother father was in \German concetration camp and he survived war. my fathers father was german who wasnt involved in war but he was killed by communists immidiately after war. my whole family was tortured for not being communist, and our country like whole east europe was ****ed up because of sssr and communism. Communism took more lives that wwii. SSSR is much bigger evil than Germany if we look Stalin's victims. And what about all wars US started, what about all collonies that suffered under Britain? Nobody\s innocent - wars come and go - and thats it.

[ruben]

Originally Posted by drmatthes

Ian,

... My late Grandpa, a Weimar Republic Conservative, strongly opposed to the Nazis, never a Party Member, was sent off as a "Stabsarzt" (Forces Medic) to the West Front and served his country somewhere near Paris. After July 20th, 1944, he was arrested, being suspect supporter of the plot against Hitler, which was perfectly true. He kept his mouth shut as well and consequently was expelled from the army by order of loss of all his ranks and sent back to Germany to keep up medical service for the people - that was the thing that saved his life, I suppose. I still own letters by Nazi authorities stating that, after this, he still supported Polish POW with Fructose to keep them alive, and, with the local Protestant reverend, he went off to the woods by bicycle to supply some of the last hidden Jews with food. Nevertheless (or rather therefore), he has always been claiming, on a very humble basis, to be a German patriot.

....Jesko

What a fine story to hear about, Jesko! I assume your Grandpa left a strong example on your family which I greet as well. There are those small candles at the hours of biggest darkness that keep hope for humanity.

Victory Day is not for me (nor for History) the victory of Russians or Americans over Germans, wether this or that government or people would like to exploit it this way, but the historical defeat of an extremely dangerous political regime. Your Grandpa, in my view was a true German patriot. At Jerusalem's Holocaust museum I have saw some documental films dealing with the rise of Fascism in Germany and I have to point to the overwhelming feeling of fear you feel looking at those tzunami waves of fanatism. Your Grandpa was a great and bold man. My heart is ceirtanly warmed by your story.

As for the issue of raping Soviet soldiers, I think the merit of the FSU peoples was being able to stand the Nazi offensive IN SPITE OF Stalin tyranical leadership. It is leadership what regulates the abuses of soldiers, either by silence or by wrinkle, wherever it be, Israel or USA, the Balkans or whatever.

The vyctims of Red Army soldiers abuse should be accounted, without doubt, as we should never accept the racists theories categorizing tribes by origin, and we should abstain from alike generalizations both directions. But it seems to me Red Army soldiers had their moments of heroism too. It was no accident the Red Army overcomed the German one, nor the fact that American Army lost their war against the Viet-Cong.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS: there is another rule by which Jesko's Grandpa should be measured. The partizan lives in the underground at great risk, but usualy meets the enemy at the hour of his choice. The partizan lives on alert all day, being his fellows part of his own eyes and ears. The partizan can show great heroism in the fight or under torture. But at the same time he belongs to an underground network backing him wherever he is.
The unorganized oppositionist is totally unprotected, but by his own morals. Therefore an unorganized oppositionist taking action can be more heroic than a partizan, according to circumstances.

[varjag]

Nzeeman, with all due respect, it wasn't Soviet Army that bombed Belgrade. Soviet-Yugoslavian diplomacy had its ups and downs, and propaganda was in alignment with love-hate (mosly hate) relationships between Tito and Stalin.

Post-war hostility towards Germans on formerly occupied territories was common across Europe, and, dare I say, predictable. Fortunately not much of it left, mainly due to Germans' understanding of the lesson of history, and tremendous body of work on their side to improve relationships with other nations. Even in FSU states hatered towards Germans is extremely rare now, with level of tension among any two ex-Soviet nations easily surpassing it.

As of comparing the amount of victims of Stalinism and Nazism, it gets meaningless once you get into millions range. Still, Belarus (my state of origin) came from the war 25-32% of population short, depending on whose data you're inclined to believe; in absolute numbers that means at least 2 million people dead. Pre-war population figures were reached only in 1970s, to great extent due to migration from other parts of Soviet Union. I sincerely doubt that 70 years of communist reign there had similar impact.

[ruben]

Originally Posted by nzeeman

Here are some facts- my mother father was in \German concetration camp and he survived war. my fathers father was german who wasnt involved in war but he was killed by communists immidiately after war. my whole family was tortured for not being communist, and our country like whole east europe was ****ed up because of sssr and communism. Communism took more lives that wwii. SSSR is much bigger evil than Germany if we look Stalin's victims. And what about all wars US started, what about all collonies that suffered under Britain? Nobody\s innocent - wars come and go - and thats it.

My friend, you know what? If your bottom line is that life stinks, I agree with you. In some sense, we all live submerged in a world full of excrement up to our ears. We have no control of it and we have not even control of the particular circumstances surrounding our life.

But this is not even the begining of wisdom nor the foreword. The issue over which we all have total control of, is what attitude we develope towards these adverse circumstances flowing from such world. Here we arrive to a matter of personal smell.

According to my nose, hereby are the basic alternatives:

Since life stinks and the world is full of excrement we can play it by the rules and become integral part of the excrement. The best players of this path happened to be the worst criminals. Ever-newbie players just affect their families.

The second possible path is to try to carve, with fatalist apathy, a kind of imaginary hole, since life is too short, and try to live a life full of yourself. You get nothing but you also don't give nothing, so you do not loose nothing, and live with plenty of nothing. At least you don't harm. Not good, nor bad. Just nothing.

The third atittude is the harder one. That of Jesko's Grandpa, to defy adverse circumstances in order not to loose you humanhood. In this path you live the world as you want it to be. You achieve true freedom as whatever the circumstances it is you who decides your own fate. And you leave behind you such strong an example, to be followed by those you care about, that your material death becomes a kind of begining for other travel companions.

This is my opinion.
Cheers,
Ruben

[kbg32]

Originally Posted by nzeeman

Sorry for saying this but - i really hate days like this. TV shows, ceremonies ... Everybody talking how bad Germans are and how great allies are. I live in Serbia and we were occupied by Germany. Ask any old man and he will tell you that he haven\t a single problem with germans and when Russian and communist came we had rapings, killings ... So dont believe all that histoory tell you. It is written by winners. Do you really think Gemans were bad guys and others were nice? In war everybody is dirty - there is no good and bad. Its all about economy and profit. So people please think with your heads and dont let them fool you.
I hope you wont get mad for this. Its just my opinion.
bye bye

From http://serbianlinks.freehosting.net/serbs.htm -

From 1941 to 1945, a systematic persecution and genocide was committed against the Serbian people in both Serbia proper, Croatia and Bosnia. About 1,000.000 Serbs perished. The most brutal were Croatian Fascists, Ustashi. " We shall kill one part of the Serbs, we shall transport another, and the rest will be forced to convert, " so said Dr. Mile Budak Minister of Education and Creeds in Craoatia on July 22,1941. In the concentration camp of Jasenovac, the most heinous crimes recorded in history were committed on more than 700,000 men women and children. ( When in 1984 the Serbian Patriarch German consecrated the memorial church in Jasenovac, he said "Forgive we must, forget we cannot.")It was customary for Ustashi to torture Serbian people, tie them in bundles and throw into pits. Examples of such crimes are numerous. In the village of Prebilovci, near Medjugorje in Hercegovina, 870 people were massacred. Nearly 50 years later their remains were exhumed and laid to rest in a newly built memorial church. Both the church and the remains were dynamited after the secession of Bosnia . in 1992.

In October 1941, the Nazi Germans executed over 7000 Serbs in the city of Kragujevac, including classes of high school students during the school session. In Vojvodina, Hungarian Fascists killed by drowning in ice covered rivers of the Danube and Tisa thousands of Serbian men, women and children. In 1941, General Draza Mihajlovic and his followers, Chetniks, organized the first armed resistance in the Nazi occupied Europe. As a Royalist, he opposed the Communist Partisan leader Josip Broz Tito. During the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia, 1941-1945, General Draza Mihajlovic and his Chetnics saved over 500 downed allied pilots mainly from the United States.


The Nazi Germans weren't that bad?